quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
But what about the "chack-chack?"

I've discussed that with a few LEOs and SWAT officers. In their opinion, the sound of racking a shotgun only tells those who are around shotguns that a pump action shotgun is on the other side of the door. It also tells them that the user of the shotgun didn't have enough experience with the firearm to have a round chambered in the first place. Which likely means an inexperienced and spray-&-pray shooter. In their opinion, the racking sound has little effect on people who don't know shotguns, other than someone on the other side of the door is making a noise with metallic devices.

Most LEOs tell me that when they hear a shotgun being racked, they back off immediately and call backup. Generally SWAT. This usually means the dude with the shotgun has a really, really bad day. One SWAT officer I trained with told me he has been "the first through the door" on three occasions. On two of those entries, he and his partner's suppressed SBR AR-15s dropped the bad guys with double taps to their upper thoracic cavities.

quote:

Plus + plus the 5.56X45mm will penetrate armor, soft and some hard and the shotgun will be just laughed at.

Hahahahahaha.

Benelli M1 with #1 buckshot.

One shot = 16 pellets center mass at any HD distance I will defend.

I am confident with it for HD. No issues with recoil. A Benelli autoloader is extremely fast shooting.

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quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Plus + plus the 5.56X45mm will penetrate armor, soft and some hard and the shotgun will be just laughed at.

Hahahahahaha.

Shotgun MAY not penetrate, but you'll be just as dead. The blunt force is a bitch, part of the rating of a vest is how well it protects against this. If you watch how they test them they put them on a clay dummy and measure the dent, and the buck shot leaves one hell of a dent that they say does plenty of internal damage

Another reason I choose an AR15 is I'm must more proficient with it because I shoot them a zillion times more than my 590s. I just don't find shooting 590s overly enjoyable.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
LOL, are you serious? A rifle that fires a projectile at several thousand feet per second out of a long barrel is "safer" than a shotgun inside a house? Whaaat?

Educate yourself. Those math lessons in High School could come in handy too.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
LOL, are you serious? A rifle that fires a projectile at several thousand feet per second out of a long barrel is "safer" than a shotgun inside a house? Whaaat?

Educate yourself. Those math lessons in High School could come in handy too.

I thought I was pretty clear a little while ago about you responding to my posts with personal shots. FUCK. OFF.

quote:

Originally posted by ARman:

and the shotgun will be just laughed at.

ARman

Thanks for the laughs

I love my AR and it is my chosen HD weapon...but that is no reason to minimize the category where a shotgun has a decided advantage and exaggerate the deficiencies of the shotgun (or advantages of the AR).

All weapon types have pluses and minuses that could mean a whole bunch depending upon individual circumstances.

The shotgun has a huge advantage in terminal performance, period. You get either many .25-.33 caliber wound channels simultaneously (8-24)! Or, a .75 cal hole (made more massive with a HP slug). This mitigates the capacity issue, 1-2 solid hits are far more likely to incapacitate than just 1-2 from an AR or handgun.

Reload speed (and a reload at all) is over-emphasized, for a HD scenario certainly and an extended tube's 6+1 will get it done even with multiple threats (see terminal effectiveness point above).

It's bigger, but the preferred tactic for HD is barricade, in any case you are in the superior position of the defender making portability less of an issue.

So, if you personally give heavier weight to terminal performance (and have no issue with the recoil), a quality semi-auto shotgun, SBS'd, with a RDS and light mounted would be an excellent choice and be the same price as a fully dolled up AR.

Beyond a HD mission, that is where the shotgun really demands much more of the operator. It takes more work to run one to its full potential. (Emergency reloads, topping up the tube, select-slug drills etc.)

These threads are among the most entertaining on the internet. A discussion like this makes me miss the likes of Testpilot, almost.

I'm limited to ten rounds per mag, no matter what I grab. I keep an 870 ready to go, although I could stop someone with a 10/22 if I had to. Training and shot placement is the key.

quote:

PASig

Your "lol" supposition that a shotgun (assuming HD ammunition) penetrates less than an AR15/556 ammunition through typical residential construction is simply wrong - hence my suggestion to educate yourself on the topic before posting about it with such certainty.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
These threads are among the most entertaining on the internet...

I agree. ...gun board purse swinging. .45 v. 9mm, AR v. Shotgun, WML v. no-light, etc.

Lots of good choices. Heck use an SKS, AK, M1 carbine, shotgun, AR, Mini-14, Model 94, whatever.

Just think through the logic and scenario, be trained, ready and most importantly WILLING to drop the hammer if required.

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I used to. I’ve moved to my SBR Scorpion just because of size. If I could legally put a magazine extension on an original A5 with an 18.5” barrel, I would switch back.

Shotgun here. I grew up with 870s, use them on the job, get a BUNCH of trigger time with them, am not bothered by the recoil, and can accomplish very efficient reloads. I *really* like shotgun ballistics vs just about any other wound profile for stopping the threat quickly.

I offer that the risk of flying buckshot lancing through drywall and plywood sheathing and still being lethal to the neighbors can be HUGELY reduced by putting all nine pellets in the threat... something that's not terribly difficult at HD distances. At 7-10 yards with stabilized buckshot, you can generally cover the entire "pattern" with a closed hand.

Also, post-shooting, the investigators will be less likely to need an ASL interpreter to interview me. Ever fire an M4 in a narrow interior hallway with plaster walls and hard floor, unsuppressed and without hearing protection? How about five or ten rounds in the same hallway? If "yes," would you ever want to do it again, and does music still sound the same or are you missing certain notes/ranges?

Not knocking the AR platform or its utility. Just not for me, not for this application.

quote:

Originally posted by DennisM:
Also, post-shooting, the investigators will be less likely to need an ASL interpreter to interview me.

Please provide your source for showing how a shotgun is less damaging to hearing than a rifle.

I competed in shotguns for many years before transitioning to rifle matches. IMO the pitch of a shotgun is slightly lower than that from a rifle, but they are roughly equal in noise levels. I shoot both shotguns and unsupressed rifles with plugs plus muffs. Furthermore, I have noticed that hearing loss for rifle and shotgun shooters is roughly equal.

The following is from a table of decibel levels in m1911.org
150 .410 shotgun
152 .22 LR pistol
153 20 gauge shotgun
155 .223 rifle
155 .25 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
156 .30-.30 rifle
156 .308 rifle
156 .44 Special revolver
157 .22 Magnum pistol
157 .45 ACP pistol
158 .380 ACP pistol
158 .38 Special revolver
159 .30-06
160 9mm Para pistol
163 .41 Magnum revolver
164 .357 Magnum revolver
164 .44 Magnum revolver

My source is a sample of precisely two, one who touched off two rounds of 5.56 under those conditions (and is now medically retired) and one who had a similar encounter with a shotgun.

I am neither an audiologist nor a physicist. But there's something in this dynamic other than the peak decibels produced by the bang/boom.

My unscientific "poll" and personal experience tell me I'm better off with the SG under those conditions. Thankfully it's a personal choice.

I spent 15 years in the manufacturing industry. Our factories were noisy -- the main floor was at least 100db, with certain machines being 120-130db if one was right next to them. Hearing pro on the floor was mandatory for all employees, regardless of position, regardless of the amount of time they spent on the floor. Even a casual walk through required ear plugs.

Employees had their hearing tested by a contracted audiology agency every 6 months. HR/Safety reported to me for many of those 15 years, therefore I had access to the test results data base, and I was briefed by the audiologist for employees with hearing loss issues.

Per the audiologists, sounds levels in DB are a very accurate way of telling when hearing loss occurs in humans. The higher the DB, the longer the duration of the pressure wave, the more frequently it occurred -- all contributed to greater hearing loss. The pitch of the noise (high note vs. low note) didn't change the fact that hearing loss occurred.

What did change was the human factor. Some people lost hearing first in the higher pitch ranges -- they couldn't hear whistles. Others in low ranges -- rumbles were challenging to detect. But the biggest challenge was the hearing loss that occurred in the pitches associated with human speech. Some were challenged to hear women's and children's voices (very common). Others were challenged to hear deep men's voices (not so common). Most common were challenged in listening to one voice, when a few people were speaking simultaneously.

Therefore, the noise could seemingly affect one person in day-to-day activities quite differently than another person. At least for the short run.

Sorry, but I'll take audiologist's data for 15 years of semi-annual testing of 100 to 400 people over your two person sample.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...-shotguns-and-walls/

The author makes the salient observation that both 5.56 and 00 Buck penetrated four walls, and "It is a great “Stopping” round, but there is a price to pay. Until someone invents a “Phaser” like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls."

Debating the overpenetration issue in wallboard is a game for those who enjoy hearing themselves speak, but who have little to say.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...-shotguns-and-walls/

The author makes the salient observation that both 5.56 and 00 Buck penetrated four walls, and "It is a great “Stopping” round, but there is a price to pay. Until someone invents a “Phaser” like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls."

Debating the overpenetration issue in wallboard is a game for those who enjoy hearing themselves speak, but who have little to say.

The biggest difference in terms of performance is in the overall range of both weapons. If you miss with .223 and don't hit anything strong or numerous enough to stop the round, you could potentially hit something a half mile away. This has happened numerous times with hunters over the past few years. A 12 gauge does not have such range.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SgtGold,

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
But what about the "chack-chack?"

I've discussed that with a few LEOs and SWAT officers. {snip}

Admittedly, I was being a smart aleck. Despite that, you've provided good knowledge. Thank you, fritz.