quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Who is actually using the F2000 in the GWOT, much less for anything else?

Belgium and Slovenia.

Belgian soliders in Chad using F2000s against Al Qaeda and Boko Haram:


Belgian soldiers in Afghanistan using F2000s against the Taliban et al:


Slovenian soldiers in Afghanistan using F2000s against the Taliban et al:

These are the most comprehensive accuracy reports I could find, concerning the AUG. It is pretty darn good, though not as good as what is generally accepted as easily-obtainable MOA-or-better performance in ARs. Would the AUG be capable of better, if Steyr or the aftermarket made more refined barrels available? Maybe.

https://www.randomgunstuff.com...tial-accuracy-report

https://www.randomgunstuff.com...and-accuracy-testing

For fun, this is a comparative picture I took. It's a picture of a picture on a screen, because it's on a phone that shit the bed. And it's not embedded because I suck. I borrowed a friend's Micro Tavor, and did my best to equip it similarly to an AR of mine at the time. The Tavor's barrel is longer! Pretty neat. One downer is the Tavor's side rails aren't terribly rigid, so that laser doesn't have a great setup. It'd be more solid on the top rail, but it'd make for a bulkier feel up there.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9EVLvTJkNCQAHv37A

I liked my Tavor SAR enough that I bought a spare. The Hellion has my interest. I do believe it is overpriced as are most bull pups.

Is it true that there is no “easy” way to lock the bolt back without using an empty mag? I heard you can do it but it requires a bit of chamber gymnastics. I may have heard it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I liked my Tavor SAR enough that I bought a spare. The Hellion has my interest. I do believe it is overpriced as are most bull pups.

Is it true that there is no “easy” way to lock the bolt back without using an empty mag? I heard you can do it but it requires a bit of chamber gymnastics. I may have heard it wrong.

The empty mag is the easiest and safest. You can hold the charging handle back and stick your finger up the magwell to push the bolt stop up too.

quote:

Once I've found time to shoot it, I'll do a bit of a ranking.

Thanks Arc, I will look forward to that.

I’m a big AUG fan. The trigger on mine is better than most stock ARs I’ve tried after I upgraded to a RatWorx sear and ARID metal trigger. You just can’t get the sweet balance of a bullpup out of an AR. Bullpups don’t seem to be typically set up for a long range role, so the accuracy comparisons many are making seem moot.

quote:

Bullpups don’t seem to be typically set up for a long range role, so the accuracy comparisons many are making seem moot.

It's a comparison nonetheless. You can't just choose to discount certain factors. The advantage of a bullpup is favorable ballistic and terminal performance at extended ranges, when compared to an AR of similar length, due to the velocity enabled by the longer barrel. If a bullpup's accuracy suffers, causing that enhanced performance to be harder to deliberately place, then it's certainly part of the conversation. Is it a huge difference, in most cases? Probably not. But if there's a difference, then it's part of the comparative discussion. I am also an AUG fan.

flesheatingvirus, is an AUG your go-to carbine? Is it your HD rifle of choice? Is it the gun that you have most "squared-away", with the most time and money invested?

If anyone can think of good things to add to this list, or think anything ought to be removed, it'd be interesting to continue the conversation:

Bullpup advantages:
Shorter OAL
Better balance

Bullpup compromises:
Trigger quality
Reload and malfunction clearance performance
Accuracy (when compared to a modern, floated AR)

Are the pros worth the cons? Would it not be more pragmatic to "man-up" and tote the longer, less-balanced rifle, for the sake of its advantages? On the topic of balance, and one-handed wielding, it's worth mentioning that only minor clever sling utilization can make even the "unbalanced" AR pretty easy to hold at the ready with only one hand.

Another thing worth mentioning, in the context of the "modern bullpup", is the integration of modern accessories for the modern battlefield. To me, it seems that, because bullpups have been spinning their wheels a bit, the accessory integration has been slower to evolve, when compared to the AR.

Yes to all of those. I sold my AR, though I’m not against getting another in the future.

Heck yeah. There are many bullpup owners, users, and advocates, but I think few have fully committed. I could be wrong, but I think folks like you are exceptional. Can you share an image of your rifle?

Ha! I don’t know about exceptional…perhaps eccentric!

A3M1 variant with NATO stock installed:




Standard stock installed:




I didn’t get a pic with the can installed on that stock yet. I also blacked out the can.

Both versions have multiple aftermarket upgrades.

I wouldn't mind picking up a NATO stock, but I've got plenty of aug mags.

As far as selling AR's or anything else meaning full commitment, I protest that idea. It's not your wife.

Train with things you intend to use in a serious manner, that can be one rifle.

Frankly, I think the AUG is a fantastic choice, but as I mentioned, I really like Keltec, and that's controversial so..

People get tired of "fanbois" of any stripe, but it's also easy for someone who doesn't own an AUG to toss that label about. Whether it be an AUG, AR, or any other rifle, the mistake people make is thinking they are done when they simply buy the rifle.

Just like I was talking about practicing shucking the KSG in my basement, if you don't put in the time, your rifle will fail you while you fail it. It's not because it's a bullpup, it's because you thought you found a shortcut.

I need to take them all at once, and perhaps an AR for baseline, and I'm no authority beyond that I've shot a lot of things a lot. I have no problem being dispassionate about the ups and downs of a rifle.

In other threads, lightweight carbine etc I've said this, but I'll put it a new way:

Choose a purpose
Get the basics like white light, sling, sights/optic.
Be realistic about that purpose and the rifles capabilities.
Be realistic about your capabilities.
Practice/train and it need not be Thunder Ranch
Use a variety of ammo and mags
Find a way to induce failures like putting a snap cap in a live mag, etc. If you don't know how to deal with failure of your chosen platform, you fucked up.

People will always want to try to find the best, but there is no way to buy yourself past the "level up" of actual trigger time.

I did address these, but there are general criticisms of the bullpup that simply don't hold water if you spend any time with one. The idea that reload and malfunctions are hard to clear isn't true, I believe I spoke to this a little bit. You can learn these things, and I'll bet you a shiny nickel that most people who make these criticisms can't clear a major failure of an AR. Accuracy? C'mon now. Trigger quality, as I said it should be compared appropriately to a USGI trigger, not to a custom aftermarket, but it can be learned. Also, available 'pups come with decent triggers these days, and some have aftermarket options. If aftermarket is OK for the AR, you can't discount it for 'pups. Insisting that something be "combat proven" or whatever, then complaining about the trigger.... silly.

I don't really expect to convince anyone of anything, which is why I asked people who weren't interested to skip the thread, and I'd like to thank them for doing so.

It's a choice and a commitment to go with a 'pup for a purpose. It's not going to work if you don't mean it. But the same can be said for any weapon. Considering that there a bunch of 'pups with real service records, it's becoming another "9mm vs. .45" inane loop to insist that they are flawed and so on.

My informal goal, long ago, which I have achieved, is to be familiar and reasonably competent with a wide variety of firearms. You can read and watch all the videos you like, you can debate endlessly, but if you aren't personally pulling triggers, what do you really know? When it becomes time to figure out who runs Barter Town, and you can't watch a Youtube video, what hands on knowledge do you really have? Have you spent enough time with something to make mistakes? Have you owned something long enough to see the spots that should really be greased?

Lots of angles to think about, and these are all choices. Choices that are the right choice, when you commit to the choice. I hope that makes sense.

quote:

ots of angles to think about, and these are all choices. Choices that are the right choice, when you commit to the choice. I hope that makes sense.

May I receive an “amen”?

I get this all the time at work.

“I read this thing a bob™️ accessory will make may patrol rifle 87% more better, can you buy it for me?”

“What if we all switched to .327 Whizzbang caliber, it gives you .327 inches less deflection at 600 meters when operating in arctic conditions!”

I don’t know. How bout you just worry about hitting 70 friggen percent on a 50 yard Qual with your friggen rifle.

Hey. I know. Let’s do it with iron sighs and a lever action.

Sorry. I get the frustrations. And it’s awesome that it’s not everyone, a lot of the new guys are really receptive to training, and are great to work with. And those are the guys that do well no matter what you throw at them in drills. Whether they have the coolest Tommy Tactical™️ setup, or they just went with the dept issued 20 year old Rock River M4 we pulled out of the rack.

Bill R

I'm not sure who that "sorry" is for.

I have to say that I don't even put 100% in a firearm, but then I've got waaaaaay more time on a rip hammer, mattock, machete, and a host of other ways to make a mess. Including steel toes.

I'm not really "old"... yet. But I'm "high mileage." I'm not running very far very fast. But god help you, I'm not giving up either.

Hell, I think I'm going to buy one of them there stainless steel drinking straws so I can carry it in my pocket next to the Cross pen. Actually, my pocket pen is from Ridge Wallet.

No Shortcuts.

There are no shortcuts to any meaningful facet of life on this blue marble.

Arc's comments prompted more consideration, which resulted in a revised pro/con list. I also dug into silencer compatibility.

Bullpup advantages:
Shorter OAL
Better balance

Bullpup compromises:
Price
Silencer integration (model dependant)
Tuneability/upgradability (trigger quality and accuracy included here)

I agree with Arc, when it comes to comparing the a pup to an M4, or other "baseline", in the military context. However, in the commercial context, I don't know that it's "fair". In the commercial market, I think we may need to compare to an AR at the same price point. If a "mil-spec" M4orgery can be had for $1500, then that buyer still has $500 to invest in a better trigger, a freefloat handguard, or some other component(s) that could enhance the rifle's performance. Or, they could have been shopping in the $2K sector in the first place, and gotten that stuff from the factory.

Also, I think comparisons should perhaps be drawn across the more "general" spectrum of applications. A pup likely makes all the sense in the world in certain applications; if one of them happens to be mine, then it's certainly going to affect my opinions.

To anyone who may cry foul, concerning my entertainment of AR upgrades and price-matching: I'd say that this thread was presented as a discussion of the "modern" bullpup. The modern pup get's pitted against its modern competitors. If we think the pup would be cheaper if only it was more widely adopted; if we think the aftermarket would be more accommodating if only it were more widely adopted; we're back to the question: if the bullpup makes so much dang sense, why hasn't it been more widely adopted?

Silencers are quickly becoming a bigger part of the modern battlefield. In my experience, and research, with the AUG, it seems that the addition of these signature reduction tools can be problematic on a pup. Flesheatingvirus recently echoed my previous comments, when commenting on his suppressed AUG, and there is a thread here...

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar...-the-AUG-/20-532873/

...which outlines the same experience, shared by multiple people, even after no expense was spared in attempting silencer integration. I know Arc doesn't care about a silencer, because of where he lives, but it's definitely part of the modern bullpup discussion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

It's not that I don't care about suppressors. Until a law changes I can't own them here. I did own them, and I would prefer to.

How a weapon responds to a suppressor, is universal. Anything that doesn't rush out the front, shits out the back. Depending on the operating system and type of suppressor, well they'll all be dirtier than not a suppressor.

"if we think the aftermarket would be more accommodating if only it were more widely adopted; we're back to the question: if the bullpup makes so much dang sense, why hasn't it been more widely adopted?" Governments adopting guns affect a market, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best gun. Bullpups aren't bad because they aren't widely adopted, and they aren't widely adopted because they are bad. Point of fact that there a host of bullpups in service at this moment, you just can't buy all of them here in the states.

Things that make loads of sense, and things that are widely adopted, are not, and need not be connected. Look across history and you'll find more things adopted because they are cheap, rather than good. The golden triangle, politics, and the history of arms development, can make this a very long thread.

I've got time, but why I put "modern bullpup" in the title, is I mean to focus on the modern commercial bullpup.

Addressing "tunability/upgradeability"..... You can't give a cheap AR a bunch of high marks, then credit for those high marks for dumping money into it... and claim its earlier price... let's not play games. The way to do it is raw price, and go ahead and put an AR that costs a given bullpup... I wager it's a dead heat.

Only one area, can the AR destroy any 'pup (and many other platforms). A lightweight carbine. I know because I have SBRs. THE place the AR shines is weight. It's like a pizza, people still say it's cheap and don't count all the toppings.

The time when the average persons AR was lightweight, has long since passed. People will dismiss an M1A all day long, then build an AR that weighs a similar amount. Bullpups will never be for everyone, except for a bunch of militaries across the globe.. They'll never be combat proven... except read the news or a history book...

It's a choice. Make the choice or don't. If these rifles were an abject failure or otherwise deficient, there would be no military service history. Put another way, I'll take my Garand and devote time and training to it. Do you think it's a bad idea? How dare you disparage the greatest battle implement ever devised? Nobody has called the AR that, so it must be trash...

I'll put ice in Lagavulin. I'll do it every day. I'll buy a KSG and practice til I can pump it like a Singapore whore. If you chose a weapon, you best commit to it. If you just buy an AR or anything else and think you're done.. it doesn't matter the properties of the piece.

Talk is cheap, internet opinions are worse than worn out buttholes. I say what I say because I've spent the time and money. Anybody is welcome to dismiss it out of hand, I'm certainly not paid or accredited for my opines. At every turn, across my tenure on the entire internet, I've always urged people to pull triggers and learn that way. Hell, I can endorse the fuck out of an L1A1, something with a legendary bush war and more, and I'm just an old man.

No shortcuts. You're going to spend time and money figuring out what works for you. Reading or watching vids on the interbutt doesn't cut it. You need hands on. Ideally you know someone, or at least a range where you can rent one (unlikely for a load of guns..) Maybe you serve in the military or leo, this might be a poor choice just to evaluate firearms..

I dismissed the RFB early from this discussion, but dango a .308 ambi bullpup with cheap mags... I've shot mine enough through a grab bag of ammo to know it'll last through your last stand at least. Is it a poor choice? Maybe. The only "questionable" rifle on the roster for this excercise is the RDB-S, and while it has no military pedigree... People who have shot mine walk away like I kissed them on the mouth.

I really only have time for people who have spent brass on the guns they espouse opinions about. If it was a straight up rule across the web, can you imagine how quickly shit would get sorted?

quote:

Only one area, can the AR destroy any 'pup (and many other platforms). A lightweight carbine.

I definitely agree with you there. I had previously created a thread postulating the exact same thing. Surprisingly, the idea wasn't met with universal agreement. I bolstered the thought by including the svelte profile of the rifle.

I have owned an AUG in the past, and only last year borrowed a friends AUG for a short period, in order to do some shooting, in response to a thought-provoking discussion much like this one. The shooting I did with the borrowed AUG was much more critical than anything I ever did with the one I owned years ago. My hit ratio and times were better than they were with my AR, during that session. If I were a rich man, I'd buy another AUG, and then spend some more money fiddling with some things to eek out it's best suppressed performance. A silencer is important to me, as is at-ear noise. Filth is a byproduct for any suppressed rifle, and it's a byproduct I am used to, and willing to deal with. I never have fired a suppressed AUG, or other bullpup, outside of a 9mm conversion in the gun I previously owned, with an AAC Tirant 9mm silencer. Based on my experience with that setup, compared to a 9mm AR with the same silencer and ammo, and compared to what it seems other shooter's experiences have been, as depicted in online discussions, I believe the at-ear (and perhaps muzzle and beyond) noise to be potentially incurably worse than an AR.

I've spent some time and money in the pup spectrum too. I all but ignored them for years, after selling mine, but have considered them in a new light, in the past eighteen months or so. That being said, I very-much appreciate thoughtful conversations like this one. If I had more reason to believe I could get similar suppressed performance out of one, I'd be pinching my pennies. Considering the silencer performance seems highly questionable, I'll wait for a windfall, and feel a little better about missing out on the bullpup, for now.

Of course spending the time behind the gun is what makes or breaks any hypothesis. However, I think a minority of internet opinions are credible. The overwhelming majority of my trigger time over the past couple years has been inspired by members here on SF; members who I have determined are damn smart people, because I have seen the proof in the pudding. Understanding those members has helped me to better spot other members online, who may know what they're talking about. I do lend weight to some internet opinions, when it seems likely that they were derived from actual experience.

The modern bullpup is a cool thing. It's certainly a different thing than the bullpup of yesteryear. It's different, and harder to consider. If this conversation was taking place in the late 80s, I'd absolutely take a 20" barebones AUG over an M16.

TFB TV recently did a video comparing the VHS, the AUG, and the Tavor and one of the points is how each works with a suppressor. The whole video is below, but the TL;DR on suppressors are the Tavor is terrible, gassy, and leave a streak of carbon on your face while the VHS is great because it has an adjustable gas system from factory and the AUG has inconvenient work arounds but is OK.

Thanks for the short version of that video. That burns my toast a little bit, as the Hellion is my least favorite of the bunch; but that's admittedly not for any good reason. I'd welcome the opportunity to shoot one with a can; come to think of it, the same friend whose AUG I borrowed may have a Hellion. What I perceived years ago, in shooting that 9mm AUG next to the 9mm AR was almost certainly purely the racket of the action slamming back and forth directly beneath my ear, as opposed to further forward. That being said, no bullpup, regardless of caliber or adjustability, will be exempt. I am going to ask about potentially borrowing a Hellion, to see if I can get some real world feedback.

*He does have one, and is willing to let me borrow it, and attach a silencer. So, I'll be able to collect some real impressions sometime in the next few days, I hope.

I've got a few pups (MDRx, RDB, AUG, does a DT SRS count?)and like the design overall. I've only played with a hellion but haven't shot one. It seems interesting.

I think people complain a lot about the triggers but I haven't found any of them to be terrible. My MDRx trigger was great out of the box. Considering their SRS trigger, I think DT has nailed it. My Aug came with the parts for the trigger upgrades and I love the trigger in that too. My RDB is an ok trigger. I wouldn't tell anyone to try it for the trigger but I do perfectly acceptable with it. I agree with the observation about AR triggers. Most bullpups are about the same.

My Aug is a bit of a pain in the butt to suppress but it works. Depends on what you are looking for I guess. My MDRx suppresses very well. I haven't tried the RDB with a can but I've heard good things about the adjustable gas.

For reloads, I wouldn't say worse, I'd just say I have more time doing AR reloads as I have more time with an AR in my hands then I haven't. That said its a different manual of arms and a bit slower but not terribly so. I also have factory 42 rd mags and that's a long, long gunfight, realistically, outside of sustained combat. Some of the repeat controls on the MDRx give me the ability to reload without breaking my firing grip just like an AR.

Malfunction clearance is by nature more complex as I don't always have access or a view of the chamber. Legitimate gripe but I'm not clearing a double feed or bolt override without cover and some spare time no matter what the gun is. I'd be interested to run the data, if its ever been collected, on how often this happens in gunfights vs how often we do it on ranges. I'm certainly not saying there's no validity to the need but how often are reloads while directly engaged or stoppage clearances without transitioning to pistols occurring and if it is a large number, how long is acceptable to get a gun up and running? I'm guessing the numbers will come back situationally dependent versus a fixed time and in some cases there was no fix before resolution one way or the other. I've had ARs jammed up so good and with such poor remedial action applied to the point where I needed to actually disassemble the entire rifle, vise, wrench, dead-blow hammer etc. Not doing that in the field.

In the end, I think it comes down to doing what works for us as individuals unless we are issued something and are discussing running it at work. Don't hear what I'm not saying, it's a fun discussion.

I'm continuing to work my AUG for travel and a bunch of other stuff. I need a forward rail that comes over where the barrel is to be truly happy. This is, of course, simply my opinion.