Maybe get a beverage and snacks, grandpa wants to tell a story.

If you aren't interested in bullpups, just kindly skip commenting. The protests of your forbears are dully noted. Comments from people who actually have time behind the butt of a bullpup are welcome, what the kids call "lived experience" has a place (it's just called experience, you monsters). If you only finger fucked one at your local freedom store or your friends garage, hasta manana. If all you've got is what you've absorbed from the web, this ain't your stop either.

The impending dogshit new ban here in MA is still hung up in the sausage factory. Maybe it will be stopped, but I expect it to pass. My most optimistic take is that it will pass, then in time get destroyed in the courts and the permanent state ban will be no more. Who knows. I jammed in one final major purchase.

For the moment, you can still buy semiautomatic things, and so I picked up a "Hellion." Of the bat, I'd just like to say that aggressive names for firearms are stupid, and as time goes by I have trouble not losing my balance because I instinctively roll my eyes so hard. I hope that they run out of names and we go into the territory of car names, or prescription drug names. Just to get away from the "Hey guys we gots to name this something cool" vibe. "Hellion" is a silly name, there are a bunch of John Wick-y guns out there with aggressive names that might be amazing, but now have a try-hard vibe. If a gun is a good product, it'll sell regardless of the name.

Other Springfield Armory Inc. products and their overall quality is a separate thread. These newly available bullpups are thankfully a rebadge, and kudos to SA inc. for bringing them to market. Bullpups have been controversial since the beginning of time, and since the development of successful small arms have for years garnered strong opinions. Yet the designs have a deep history, the actual Springfield Armory is a place I can drive to. and the grandaddy of bullpups is actually only 1 year younger than me. It's 46. 46, and you should remind gun control dolts how old the AR is..

The AR is a commercially mature platform and that is great. The bullpup has been out there serving in various militaries, for many years, and still people are skeptical. Frankly, firearms are part of human history, and the intricacies of these weapon platforms and their service records is a huge part of why I enjoy firearms. The market, and the expiration of the 94 ban, have made AR's what they always should have been.

It's 2023 for a few months longer, and there are a lot of choices for bullpups out there. I've owned and shot a whole lot of them, but the internet tells me there are a ridiculous amount of bullpup rifles and shotguns that I've never heard of... and well, I don't count any of those. We'll talk about widely commercially available rifles, and really the most exotic I'd consider is Keltec. I'm a fan of their long guns, because they work. Generally I don't blame anyone for dismissing them, but y'all are missin' out.

So you walk into your local Fun Shop, and you will likely have an actually robust selection of proven 5.56 bullpup rifle platforms at this point. That's pretty cool. I'll get on to ranking these available rifles, but not right now. We're setting the stage.

Without relitigating the rationale for the design itself and the inherent advantages, I can distill it to common complaints. Here enumerated:

Expensive - while you can buy a cheap AR, have you seen the prices of decent ones? People are buying AKs that cost what?
The trigger sucks - This should be compared to a stock GI AR trigger, those suck, Pepperidge Farm remembers. The triggers on modern offerings are not awful, and with some rounds downrange you'll work it out. The history here isn't just linkage and leverage, but fire control. Anyway..
Heavy - No one seems to care about lightweight anymore, or they think all the gack they hang doesn't count.
Not friendly to lefties - Ridiculous in the context of the history of small arms and the AR and AK.
Not ambi - Related to above, but actually most bullpups can either be adapted or are by design ambi.
Unreliable - With halfhearted maintenance and ammo, most modern guns are sufficiently reliable..
Hard to clear failures - Failures are hard to clear unless you practice, and in the context of that typical discussion, you're going to get killed "in a fight" clearing a rifle that's not a bullpup... Train with your rifle.
No aftermarket - Generally still true, but boy are there nice triggers etc. out there now.
The chamber is next to my face - Having seen various blowed up guns, you'll live. You may need some bandaids and a change of underwear, but you'll actually escape disabling injury, if data means anything.
I don't like bullpups - please see the beginning of this thread.

I had to order the "Hellion," and when I did they were kinda like "you sure?" When I picked it up, they'd handled it enough that I think somebody might be bi and awakened or something. It's OK if you just put your hands under the sweater, you didn't pull the trigger.

We've all seen Die Hard, and many probably have played Counter Strike. That's just two of a huge list of media that bullpups are a part of, across the decades to present day are some rifles you and I have no access to, but would fit the definition of "proven." The L85/SA80 stands out as a fantastic example of turd polishing.. We all want a FAMAS but at least there is Forgotten Weapons. You can't get those, you can't get a bunch of other bullpups out there, but what you can get, is actually pretty darn good.



I need to figure out an optic. The "collapsible stock" really isn't, it's an adj. lop. I had to have a "muzzle device" permanently attached to keep it. So I went with a brake that fits someone's competition to the "Flaming Pig." Generally it's a fine rifle out the gate. I'll compare it directly to the rest of the 'pups in the safe at some point.

2023 is a great time to buy a bullpup. It's ok if you read this far and don't want to, but if you did, you might actually want to. I won't tell.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
and the grandaddy of bullpups is actually only 1 year younger than me. It's 46.

The septuagenarian British EM-2 rifle would argue otherwise...



[cranky old British man]
"Lads these days don't know nothin' about classic bullpups. They think the AUG started it all. Poppycock. Those Austrians didn't originate a bloody thing, and were over two decades late to the game. Back in my day, men were men, tea was made good and strong, and our bullpups came with wood furniture."
[/cranky old British man]



The EM-2 chambered in .280 British - aka the Rifle No. 9 Mk. 1 - was the first bullpup to be adopted as a service rifle, back in 1951 by the British Army, albeit only for about a year before an abrupt shift to standardizing on the 7.62 NATO cartridge and adopting the FN FAL.

(And there were other bullpup firearms that predate even that by up to another 90 years, although none of these earlier predecessors saw widespread production or use outside of prototypes and concept pieces.)

Looks like you got one of the ones with the new safety that they debuted on the 18 and 20 inch models. Wish my early 16 incher came with that. I’ve got the Manticore Arms safety, but haven’t taken the gun apart to install it yet.

I’m a proud member of the bullpup brigade myself.

Current:
Steyr AUG A3
IWI Tavor SAR
IWI Tavor X95
IWI Tavor 7
Keltec RDB
FN PS90
FN FS2000
SA Hellion
DT MDR
S&W M&P 12

Previously owned:
Keltec RFB
Bushmaster M17S

I don't remember what all happened, as I didn't re-read it in it's entirety, before sharing it here, but this thread tried to have a similar conversation.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/2620058884/p/1

It is an intriguing subject. Everything about the bullpup makes sense.

Looking forward to your feedback on this one. I had an FS2000 for nearly a decade until I sold it earlier this year. People love to enumerate what they don’t like about it, but I liked it. I didn’t shoot it after a while because it became a collector’s item. The Hellion is not, and I’ve looked at it a few times, but priorities have been elsewhere this year.

The RDB has a rather nice trigger out of the box.

For a bullpup.

I have a Tavor x95, with Geissele trigger.

I like it.

Good thread!

Heading to the range today for a little rifle-and-pistol fun, and this made the rifle choice easy.
(Note: not my photo - no idea on the optic, etc.)

I really like the looks of that. Do you have a Tavor, and if so how do they compare?

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
and the grandaddy of bullpups is actually only 1 year younger than me. It's 46.

The septuagenarian British EM-2 rifle would argue otherwise...

I said grandaddy. Not distant genetic relative. We don't send Christmas Cards to the apes in the zoo, do we?

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Looks like you got one of the ones with the new safety that they debuted on the 18 and 20 inch models. Wish my early 16 incher came with that. I’ve got the Manticore Arms safety, but haven’t taken the gun apart to install it yet.

I’m a proud member of the bullpup brigade myself.

Current:
Steyr AUG A3
IWI Tavor SAR
IWI Tavor X95
IWI Tavor 7
Keltec RDB
FN PS90
FN FS2000
SA Hellion
DT MDR
S&W M&P 12

Previously owned:
Keltec RFB
Bushmaster M17S

The M17s is something I've seen popping up customized. It's a brick, once I got a USR I got rid of it, then I got rid of that when I got a Microtech, got rid of that for a real AUG. The FS2000 felt to me like I was holding a boat oar. The X95 is the Tavor worth owning, imo. The Ps90 is off the list because ammo. Bullpup shotguns are their own bag, I don't feel compelled to get more than the KSG. I don't really count the MDR or MicroTech's aug clone either, as they aren't widely available. The MDR hopefully gets as much shade as Keltec, just because... crazy people designing guns is bad, right? Nobody try anything new!

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
I don't remember what all happened, as I didn't re-read it in it's entirety, before sharing it here, but this thread tried to have a similar conversation.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/2620058884/p/1

It is an intriguing subject. Everything about the bullpup makes sense.

Considering that thread is over a year old and wanting to go my own way, I left it be.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Looking forward to your feedback on this one. I had an FS2000 for nearly a decade until I sold it earlier this year. People love to enumerate what they don’t like about it, but I liked it. I didn’t shoot it after a while because it became a collector’s item. The Hellion is not, and I’ve looked at it a few times, but priorities have been elsewhere this year.

Yeah, the FS2000 never grabbed me. Neat guns though. Maybe I was spoiled by the AUG.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
The RDB has a rather nice trigger out of the box.

For a bullpup.

The keltecs do have good triggers. Better triggers than almost all stock 'pups.

quote:

Originally posted by sig2392:
I have a Tavor x95, with Geissele trigger.

I like it.

The X95 already has a better trigger than the rest of the Tavors, I might get the Geissele, but it's not a hard requirement I'd say.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
Good thread!

Heading to the range today for a little rifle-and-pistol fun, and this made the rifle choice easy.
(Note: not my photo - no idea on the optic, etc.)

I don't file the P90 under rifle, I'd say it's a PCC (PDW really). I urge anyone who owns one to SBR it. Fun guns, but as for the ammos performance, they're kinda like the new M1 Carbine. Does the Secret Service still use them, I wonder if they still use Mp5K's? The 5.7 AR uppers are an abomination. I feel like 5.7 and the P90 will be like 10mm, it won't go away, but it'll be "niche" forever. Find someone who will let you shoot one in auto, with the real ammo, at old vests no one is wearing.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
I really like the looks of that. Do you have a Tavor, and if so how do they compare?

Once I've found time to shoot it, I'll do a bit of a ranking. Leaving off the AUG 9mm, KSG and RFB, I've got:

Steyr AUG A3
Keltec RDB-S
Tavor X-95
SA inc. "Hellion"

There is your modern, typically available 5.56 bullpups right there. Some folks will throw the keltec right out, that's fine. The Survival model has unique properties, its size makes it a better truck/backpack gun than any other 'pup. I hate the name "Hellion," so I think I'll call mine UXB from now on, because it's short and shoots 5.56.

Is there a "best," not really, but if you're going to buy one I'll compare them directly coming soon. I think you'll have to decide two things: What is the use, and what property is most important. Such as size, weight, ergos, ergos like an AR, etc. Once I've got some trigger time on UXB I'll do a report. Now I have to name it something else because that's not right. They can't call it "VHS" because no American will own an old visual media. So they went with something that sounds like it's trying too hard. At least no Millenials were in that meeting, or it would be called the "H3ll10n" or some shit.

Of all the arguments against a bullpup people make, the most popular is failures that take the gun out of the fight. This is never a rational argument, if you're "in a fight," there are a variety of failures you won't be clearing from any rifle. You'll have to transition to a different weapon, or pick one up off a fallen comrade. After that I'll leave people to consider whether they're really face conditions like on In Range and other youtube channels, and how general care and maintenance, as well as keeping the rifle near you, solves a lot of problems.

I wouldn't own a Barrett unless someone gave me one, only because you need proper distance to shoot those. 200 yards or less is for youtubery. I would also only own a WA2000 if someone gave one to me, because there are only like 30 in the US. There are tons of successful bullpups out there, some have been around a loooong time. I wouldn't exactly count Calico's... but they are fun when they run.

I had a thread about Desert Tech's Trek-22, I'd recommend the shit out of that. But kits aren't part of this discussion, otherwise we'd have to include all those freakish abominations you can do to SKS's and the like. May god have mercy on your soul if you did that to an SKS.

I've always wanted a Steyr-AUG. I like how they handle, how they shoot and how compact they are. The trigger is OK and the mag release a little less so. But there are after market fixes. Price has always kept me from getting one.

DT's MDR, especially the new design that is side eject is also intriguing. But $$$$ keeps me with the AR15. Some day, I will buy one.

I look forward to your range report.

The AUG is iconic. Unlike some things like the Desert Eagle, it's not just iconic cuz it looks cool. It's iconic because it is actually good. And it looks cool. If a bunch of people were injured or killed when it exploded next to their face... I think the record would show that. Bullpups will be measured against the AUG until something sufficiently surpasses it. What we can say for sure, is if they spent the time and money on the AUG that they did to make the L85 work, where would we be?

You have to compare a bullpup to the AR. But, you also have to be fair and concede that that AR isn't a 5lb $600 carbine. A fair comparison, is by price alone. No? I have an SR-15...

The complaint against the bullpup trigger is generally valid, and oft attributed to a transfer bar. It depends on the gun, and the AUG trigger is actually because of its select fire design. My factory 9mm will make you wet yourself.

You can get an inexpensive banger of a bullpup that will compete with an AR, it's made by Keltec. I know. I know. I'm not including the RFB on this spectrum, but dood, a .308 'pup that takes FAL mags and has just ate all my grab bag? Fuck yeah.

Consider that Pax Britannica just adopted the modern Stoner. Does that mean the L85 is trash? Of course it does, look at all the money they gave Nazi puppets HK to fix it... right?

Clearly nations that adopt 'pups are criminally insane, like China... and who else?

I'll say this. I never clean these guns. At some point they'll stop working. If the world order collapses, or I see riots in the streets, I'll give a good scrub to everything. All I'm saying, is that this shit isn't made of tissue paper, even if it says Keltec on the side.

Back to the KSG for a second. You people clean pump shotguns? I mean, clean an auto occasionally, but I should be able to take a dump in a pump, and as long as I don't short shuck, she's a goer.

The good news here, is you have to really try to buy absolute garbage. It trails the AR market as far as overall quality and available mods, but not by much.

In considering the F2000: It's a gun that's been in service for the entirety of the GWOT, and most certainly been "proven" in that conflict (at least as "proven" as anything folks are touting as being "proven" in the Ukraine). If they were available at around $1000, would we see more folks choosing that as their favorite rifle? I don't mean would we see more people buying/owning them; we would certainly see that. Would we see more people choosing them as their primary HD or SHTF rifle? I chose the F2000 for this question because it does away with the ejection problem that many leverage against the pups. I have only ever fired a F/A FS2000, and it's been many years; I can't recall the trigger quality, but, like ARC, I agree that people moaning about pup triggers is silly. So, would F2000s be everyone's choice for their next high dollar, high round count carbine class? Would it be everyone's "bump in the night" gun? Would we see a shift, if the price came down? I didn't make the hypothetical price on par with a turd AR, because I believe that a pup is likely always going to be inherently more expensive. But, if the advantages are indeed worth it, then... the 1k pup is worth it.

EDIT: I suppose it's rather difficult to even speculate. I think my AUG is about the only gun I regret selling (though perhaps not, because it wasn't a NATO version). I wish I still had it, so I could apply it to my current firearms mentality, and gauge it's viability. I do think it's telling that specialized units haven't gravitated towards them, in most cases. Fancy units aren't constrained by as many factors as the main force, and I do believe they'd be fielding bullpups, if they were as advantageous as they seem. In that thread I referenced earlier, someone did share images of one specialized unit using a bullpup; that could be either proof of traction, or a fluke. A google search does seem to indicate that Austrian special troops use the AUG; a search of Israeli or Croatian special forces seems to exhibit more conventional layout guns, than pups. If I could pick up an AUG in a NATO stock for $1000, I would. If it played well with a silencer and proved as accurate as my AR that I have grown accustomed to, it'd likely usurp that AR's role as my favorite, "go-to" rifle.

All that being said, I suppose the things keeping me away are price, and the rigmarole of switching to a different platform. Would I spend 1k on an experiment (and a fine rifle)? Yeah. Twice that? No. Also, at this point, I'd be quite inclined to put that thousand dollars toward some other aspect of my existing rifle/equipment system, than toward something that may or may not stick. And, if it did stick, I'd be on the hook for even more dough, when I get into transferring all my little bits over to a rifle that maybe doesn't play well with accessories more-or-less configured for an AR.

I reckon it boils down to the cost, and being already deeply invested in a different rifle. Surely, if the layout's advantages were truly there, these rifles would've caught-on a little more, in the decades they've been around. I'd like to get another AUG, or even an FS2000, but not so much that I'd consider it a priority.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

quote:

I hate the name "Hellion," so I think I'll call mine UXB from now on, because it's short and shoots 5.56.

If Springfield Armory insists on naming theirs after a planet, I shall call mine "Crematoria."

Its an animal thing.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
In considering the F2000: It's a gun that's been in service for the entirety of the GWOT, and most certainly been "proven" in that conflict (at least as "proven" as anything folks are touting as being "proven" in the Ukraine). If they were available at around $1000, would we see more folks choosing that as their favorite rifle? I don't mean would we see more people buying/owning them; we would certainly see that. Would we see more people choosing them as their primary HD or SHTF rifle? I chose the F2000 for this question because it does away with the ejection problem that many leverage against the pups. I have only ever fired a F/A FS2000, and it's been many years; I can't recall the trigger quality, but, like ARC, I agree that people moaning about pup triggers is silly. So, would F2000s be everyone's choice for their next high dollar, high round count carbine class? Would it be everyone's "bump in the night" gun? Would we see a shift, if the price came down? I didn't make the hypothetical price on par with a turd AR, because I believe that a pup is likely always going to be inherently more expensive. But, if the advantages are indeed worth it, then... the 1k pup is worth it.

EDIT: I suppose it's rather difficult to even speculate. I think my AUG is about the only gun I regret selling (though perhaps not, because it wasn't a NATO version). I wish I still had it, so I could apply it to my current firearms mentality, and gauge it's viability. I do think it's telling that specialized units haven't gravitated towards them, in most cases. Fancy units aren't constrained by as many factors as the main force, and I do believe they'd be fielding bullpups, if they were as advantageous as they seem. In that thread I referenced earlier, someone did share images of one specialized unit using a bullpup; that could be either proof of traction, or a fluke. A google search does seem to indicate that Austrian special troops use the AUG; a search of Israeli or Croatian special forces seems to exhibit more conventional layout guns, than pups. If I could pick up an AUG in a NATO stock for $1000, I would. If it played well with a silencer and proved as accurate as my AR that I have grown accustomed to, it'd likely usurp that AR's role as my favorite, "go-to" rifle.

All that being said, I suppose the things keeping me away are price, and the rigmarole of switching to a different platform. Would I spend 1k on an experiment (and a fine rifle)? Yeah. Twice that? No. Also, at this point, I'd be quite inclined to put that thousand dollars toward some other aspect of my existing rifle/equipment system, than toward something that may or may not stick. And, if it did stick, I'd be on the hook for even more dough, when I get into transferring all my little bits over to a rifle that maybe doesn't play well with accessories more-or-less configured for an AR.

I reckon it boils down to the cost, and being already deeply invested in a different rifle. Surely, if the layout's advantages were truly there, these rifles would've caught-on a little more, in the decades they've been around. I'd like to get another AUG, or even an FS2000, but not so much that I'd consider it a priority.

Who is actually using the F2000 in the GWOT, much less for anything else? Other than Saudi Arabia buying a bunch of them, most have been used in limited numbers by some special forces groups. I bought a FS2000 when it first came out, and later sold it when I needed money. I bought one a year or two ago, mostly for my collection of military guns, not because it’s a great gun.

My thoughts on the FS2000 as a two time owner:

-Very bulky
- Very proprietary, with almost no aftermarket or spare parts. About the only factory optional part was a tri-rail lower handguard.
- Lousy trigger, that nothing can be done about.
- Deep magwell limits you to 30 round metal mags.
- Have to manually pull the mags out of the gun due to that rubber dust dust skirt inside of the mag well. Some people rip it out.
- No chamber access to clear a malfunction. You can lift the toilet lid to look at the chamber, but you have zero access to do anything.
- The early commercial guns had slam fire issues. The military F2000s were designed for hard military primers and had a free floating firing pin, like an AR. This could cause slam fires with softer commercial primers. FN fixed this on later FS releases, but they doubled up on the fix. They used a lighter firing pin and added a firing pin spring. That fixed the slam fire issue with soft primers, but now some reported reliability issues with surplus military ammo.
- No LRBO, and that’s partly due to the design. The gun needs the bolt to move forward so that the spent case gets shoved into the overhead ejection tube.

To be fair, the gun is well built, surprising reliable (aside from the potential ammo primer issue), and for all its complexity, the weird ejection system worked quite well. But as far as bullpups go, I’d take an AUG, Tavor, of Hellion over the FS2000 all day, every day.

There is a reason FN discontinued them. They weren’t selling well.

I chose that as an example because, as I said, it doesn't suffer from the "ejection in the face" issue that people whine about, and it's been "proven" by military use (I did admit the near-meaningless nature of the word, by referencing folks referring to rifles being "proven" in the Ukraine). Perhaps the F2000's other idiosyncrasies outweigh the positive forward ejection feature.

Regardless of my referencing the F2000, I think my other observations of the bullpup phenomenon are at least thought provoking, if not valid.

I’ve heard of no one complaining of “ejection in the face” with bullpups. Who’s saying that? I’ve never heard of a right hand shooter saying and almost all of the popular bullpups can swap ejection sides (may require buying a left hand bolt), or have front or bottom ejection.

Some people don’t like the case flying out right next to the side of their face, but that’s a personal feeling thing, not a real problem. No one’s getting hit with a spent case.

It was mentioned a couple times in that discussion I linked in my first reply to ARC. I don't think it's a real problem either, but it is something bullpup detractors mention. I think it comes into play when contemporary high-speed shoulder switching is employed. Don't get hung up on my mention of the F2000; like I said, I chose it for that reason, and it's use in the military in a contemporary conflict (which I am admittedly assuming, merely due to the GWOT being 20 years long, and pretty much every nation getting in on it. Someone probably patrolled with, and fired "in anger", an F2000). There's no way to otherwise bolster a gun that ejects in an unconventional fashion; any detractor would poopoo a RFB/RDB and MDR because they're not "proven".

The cool thing about bullpups is that they're all different.

The good thing about AR's is that they're all the same.

In another attempt to "boil it down":
Bullpup advantages:
Shorter OAL
Better balance

Bullpup compromises:
Trigger quality
Reload and malfunction clearance performance
Accuracy (when compared to modern, floated AR)

I am making an mildly educated guess on the accuracy, based on what I know about the AR, and what I have read about guns like the Tavor and AUG.