So is there anything to them. If so who sells them for a reasonable price. Are they all created equal?
Maybe there is a reason they are not a thing? Any thoughts?

Wilcox and EOTECH make reliable high quality green lasers for rifles. Lots of reviews on You Tube.

Part of the reason they're not really much of a thing is that the FDA regulations neuter the output to a level where they're not incredibly useful during the daytime. They have to be under 5mw. At night, if you're pairing it with a light since a laser without a white light is basically useless in the dark anyways, at the distances a laser would be useful, you're nearly guaranteed a hit on a man sized target at most defensive distances if you just use the hotspot of the light as you would use a laser. Then there's the whole convergence thing.

Wasn't something I bothered with until I started shooting with night vision, and lasers are kind of viewed as standard gear in that world, but in IR. IR lasers coaligned with a powerful green laser in the same unit mean you can check your zero during daylight hours since both the IR and green laser will be aiming at the same spot with less than an MOA difference in point of aim in a quality unit, so what you see with a green laser without NODs is what you'll see with them with your IR laser, and thus, you can cowitness your green laser with your dot or reticle at whichever distance you want your zero to converge.

This is where things get sticky: China doesn't give a flipping shit about FDA regulations and exports lasers with incredibly potency as a general rule. It used to mean units that were incredibly powerful, but also didn't coalign (green and IR can differ wildly in where they're aimed) or airsoft dogshit quality in terms of durability. There is still airsoft crap out there, but this is no longer the case across the board. A couple weeks ago, I pulled my full power PEQ-15 off my main rifle and installed an SMS Laser Trinity on it, because it smokes the L3 built PEQ-15 in absolutely every metric. We're talking what should be a reasonably apples to apples comparison in terms of output, and yet it isn't even close. The Trinity is better for $350. I guess if Uncle Sam wanted to guarantee my stuff was going to work under mortar fire, it might be a different question, but even still, it's a pretty solid aluminum housing vs polymer. The only thing the PEQ does better so far as I can tell is focus the illuminator down to what amounts to maybe six feet at 500 yards if my experiments with the nearby mountain are accurate. That's not a requirement of mine, and you're not asking about IR illumination anyways.

Anyways, you might take a look at SMS Laser stuff. The HFXC has features you don't need as far as IR, but it has a full power green laser, and the guys in the NV community have beat the piss out of these units to test them for durability and they've received the "this is well worth the $200" stamp of approval, which still comes in well under the cost of the US made neutered units like Wilcox and Streamlight.

I know, blink safe and lasers bouncing back at you and all that, but we are talking about something you're putting on an offensive weapon. I don't see the point in having a low output laser on a fucking rifle.

Thanks smudge. That was a lot of info I did not know. Or should I say, I had no idea. Appreciate the info. Thank you.

Lasers are helpful in the dark, but they are an absolute beacon. Anyone down range can see the source.

I have IR lasers for shooting with night vision. They are also a beacon for anyone else with night vision. Light and laser discipline is a thing. Momentary switches are the general rule so you aren't illuminating your position and asking to get shot.

Many shooters try to shoot passive. Using night vision but relying on seeing through their red dot. I have tried this and it highly depends on the quality of your red dot. Some of them pass through light really well. Some do not.


From a practical standpoint. If it is dark enough to need a laser, you also need to either illuminate your target with white light or have NODS and IR. If you illuminate your target with white light, you can use your standard sighting system.


Paired lasers with a green/red slaved to an IR where you can zero both together are useful. Lets you zero in the daytime with your day optic aligned to the visible laser.

I personally use IR only and I can align them in the dark by adjusting my diopter on my optic and aligning with the reticle, or by lining them up with a RDS. IR lasers are generally a fairly short range solution. I tried coyote hunting for several years with NODS and IR. Thermal is a much better solution for shooting warm bodies after dark.

Green lasers are of marginal utility, IMHO.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: IndianaBoy,

I agree with all statements on night vision and lasers.

I do perceive value in visible light/laser combos in a "nightstand gun". I have long had a red laser and light combo unit on a nightstand gun. I appreciate the idea of an aiming point confirmation in the darkness, in the context of a just-woke-up scenario.

In using a weapon-mounted light as a searching tool in a bleary-eyed condition, I appreciate the body of the weapon being absent from my FOV. A proper aiming point is enabled by the laser in this circumstance. The "hot spot" of the light is OK too, as Smudge mentioned, but the laser is that much better.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
Green lasers are of marginal utility, IMHO.

This.

Outside of low light scenarios at bedroom distances, visible lasers (handgun or rifle) generally aren't even visible.

In bright light and/or past room distances or so, you lose your aiming point.

And as mentioned above, if you're in a low light scenario, you will likely (or at least should) be utilizing a white light for target ID, thus washing out your laser dot anyway and obviating even that niche use case.

Even higher powered military-grade visible lasers for rifles are generally only visible out to ~25 yards in daylight or bright interior light.

The rifles lasers you see in use are primarily for infrared lasers use alongside night vision. (These also have the added benefit of being an actual "beam" instead of just a dot somewhere in the distance, so you don't have to hunt for a tiny lone aiming point jiggling around somewhere in the distance.)

quote:

These also have the added benefit of being an actual "beam" instead of just a dot somewhere in the distance

I don't consider that a benefit, nor is it a "fact" of high power lasers. I suppose it could be useful, if shooting "from the hip", but the negative effect of the enemy being able to trace that line back to your position is of greater detriment than any value to you as the shooter. In most cases, a shooter using a laser, even if as a primary aiming tool, ought to be confident and quick to identify his laser, as a result of weapon presentation. He shouldn't need or rely on a laser line emitting from his rifle.

It only occurs when moisture or particulate in the atmosphere enables it. Is the effect more dramatic with a high power laser? Yes. But it is also completely absent with a high power laser, if the air between you and the target is "clean".

You misunderstood. That's talking about IR laser beams, not visible laser beams. Reread the prior sentence you removed.

It's true with visible and IR lasers, in my experience: the dependance on material in the air for the visible or IR laser to illuminate, to create the line.

I'll take your word for that. I guess I've never shone an IR laser inside a cleanroom.

(And granted, my experience under NODs is limited.)

As for the "enemy tracing the line back", that would be true for a visible laser beam, or an IR beam when facing a near-peer military opponent who also has NODs, but not in a scenario with IR lasers where only you and your buddies have NODs like I was envisioning.

Most home invaders/criminals/etc. aren't using night vision.

Yeah. The conversation about lasers almost inevitably ends up involving night vision and/or "near-peer" conflicts when it wasn't in the scope of the original discussion prompt.

Another thing worth mentioning is that, depending on the construction of the laser unit, it's not always "easy" to trace the source of a laser. Sometimes the emitters are shielded in a way that makes detection of the source difficult unless the person seeking it is being pointed-at with the device (or nearly pointed-at).

Thanks guys. A lot of info here I had no idea about these devices. I realize now I have no need for one

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
(These also have the added benefit of being an actual "beam" instead of just a dot somewhere in the distance, so you don't have to hunt for a tiny lone aiming point jiggling around somewhere in the distance.)

This is some Hollywood shit, actually. They achieve the "beam" look by filming through NV while guys use green vis lasers at about blink safe settings. A full power green laser through NODs looks more like a LEP beam or something like a mini search light than a beam. A full power PEQ-15 on IR high projects a dot, not a beam. An IR laser with enough juice to actually produce a beam is enough to cause serious eye damage just from being projected onto reflective surfaces because your eye isn't registering the damage that a blink reflex would have helped prevent, being triggered by light in a wavelength we can perceive. Footage of IR lasers showing a beam are, as KSGM says, filmed in an environment with enough fog, dust, or smoke to show said beam. But on a clear night? Nah, just a dot on the target. At full power, it's a big, splashy dot, but it's a dot all the same.

And yes, discussions about green laser use on rifles often turns to NV even though that wasn't the question as framed because... that's generally the only actual current use case for lasers on long guns currently.

ORC, I think you're making the right call just giving it a miss.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
(These also have the added benefit of being an actual "beam" instead of just a dot somewhere in the distance, so you don't have to hunt for a tiny lone aiming point jiggling around somewhere in the distance.)

This is some Hollywood shit, actually. They achieve the "beam" look by filming through NV while guys use green vis lasers at about blink safe settings. A full power green laser through NODs looks more like a LEP beam or something like a mini search light than a beam. A full power PEQ-15 on IR high projects a dot, not a beam. An IR laser with enough juice to actually produce a beam is enough to cause serious eye damage just from being projected onto reflective surfaces because your eye isn't registering the damage that a blink reflex would have helped prevent, being triggered by light in a wavelength we can perceive. Footage of IR lasers showing a beam are, as KSGM says, filmed in an environment with enough fog, dust, or smoke to show said beam. But on a clear night? Nah, just a dot on the target. At full power, it's a big, splashy dot, but it's a dot all the same.

I can often see the beam from my PAQ4C rifle laser. But it is often very humid in Indiana. Might be a completely different scenario in the Sonoran Desert.

It is a full power laser, which is actually detrimental. It requires an illuminator to tame the bloom at longer distances. I actually wish it was less powerful. The bloom washes out the target.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Yeah. The conversation about lasers almost inevitably ends up involving night vision and/or "near-peer" conflicts when it wasn't in the scope of the original discussion prompt.

I only steered the conversation that way because a lot of people who haven't shot with lasers think they can simply use them in the dark. It is true for about 10-15 minutes of twilight at dawn and dusk.

Once it is truly dark, you aren't going to be able to use them without illuminating your target, at which point your regular aiming apparatus is sufficient and often superior to a laser.


One caveat, many handgun lights have a paired laser. For home defense, there's not much downside to this. They add virtually zero weight, while adding a practical aiming solution at home defense distances.

Might be useful from an awkward position.

Yeah, some of the Rovyvon offerings are surprisingly good in that category. A number of us in my group have been using GL4 Pros for over two years now and no issues to report. The throw lever kinda sucks, but they offer a crossbolt mount now.

quote:

I only steered the conversation that way because a lot of people who haven't shot with lasers think they can simply use them in the dark.

I wasn't condemning the shift. Seems the OP appreciated it, and it always makes for an interesting brief conversation.