The balance matters more than the actual weight; I own both and confirm they indeed feel much different. Can't go wrong with either.

Here's my buddy E shooting quick. Game loads over 00 but he said he can outshoot the trigger on an A300 but not the 1301.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDqsjJ7WB0

huge shotty guy here for Hd. Mossberg 500/590 pump.

I know we have had discussions about a pump vs SA. Love the pump. Never short stroked one. Dead nuts reliable. 00 buck.

I do not know about it being better than anything else.
But his point about a shotgun being thought of differently by jurys is valid. Like it or not.

I think most can agree that it is a very effect tool for repelling those with bad intentions.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
But his point about a shotgun being thought of differently by jurys is valid. Like it or not.

Which is odd, considering you can put, like, 160 holes in somebody with one.

quote:

Originally posted by PGT:
Here's my buddy E shooting quick. Game loads over 00 but he said he can outshoot the trigger on an A300 but not the 1301.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDqsjJ7WB0

Wow, that was fascinating.

I look at it this way for home defense in the carbine/rifle vs shotgun argument (and yes I have both!). On the highly improbable chance I get a home intruder or two, and I actually have to shoot because instead of running away after I've announced myself LOUDLY and yelled that I'm armed and the cops are on the way, he/they decide to attack anyway, I'll probably only get 2-3 shots off before someone (possibly me) is severely injured/dead or the other party finally decides it's time to run away. Since I'm likely to only have the opportunity to fire a few shots at most, I prefer more lead down range for those few shots I will shoot. I can shoot a full 9 shell load from my Beretta 1301 just as fast and accurately as I can shoot the first 9 rounds in my semi-auto AR15 at the 10 max yards indoor ranges inside my home. I'm not concerned about chasing and shooting anyone outside my home.

For a full shotgun magazine in my 1301 (9 rounds, 7 in mag, one in chamber, one ghosted); 144 pellets of #1 buck (my favorite) or 72-81 pellets of 00 buck available versus 9 bullets of 5.56 in the same amount of time and number of shots. If I only manage to get off three shots, then the numbers become 48 pellets of #1 buck or 24-27 pellets of 00 versus 3 bullets of 5.56. I'll take the larger volume of lead for the type of home defense I am likely to encounter.

Sure the AR15 has an advantage of easier/accurate shooting, more rounds in a mag , and easier reloading, but in the time space, and likely intruder scenarios I would likely encounter in MY neighborhood, the shotgun is better suited. The strengths of a rifle just don't add enough in my home defense scenarios, especially since defense is always slower than offense as I MUST identify before pulling the trigger. I can't just mag dump through the corner wall as soon as I see a toe/leg cross into my hallway's main line of fire. Even with an intruder walking into my house in the middle of the night, it is still FAR more likely that it's an old neighbor with dementia wandering into my home than it is likely to be an aggressive and persistent attacker trying to steal my $300 TV.

XerO makes some good points. While ergonomics and possibly ease of training might favor the AR, there are advantages to the shotgun also.
I do Not think the shotgun is harder to understand or learn compared to the AR, but I do think developing the required skill and dexterity to optimally operate it is. The slowness of reloading has a very slim chance of impacting the outcome of a home defense encounter, especially if we are talking extended magazine guns with 7+ rounds on tap.
Bear in mind for years NYPD detectives were issued stevens 311R double barrels !

Shotgun: Low capacity. Limited range. Extremely slow to reload. Long. Heavy recoiling. Almost always loud since suppressor options are extremely limited and adding one makes it even more unwieldy. Pump shotguns can easily end up with user created stoppages due to failure to pump the mechanism all of the way to the rear or push it all of the way forward due to high stress.

AR: High capacity. Long range. Reload 30 more rounds in a second or two. In non NFA form, 2" shorter (16" barrel) than the shortest non NFA shotgun (18" barrel). Little to no recoil. Can be suppressed easily.

Shotguns beat AR's in one application only: Migratory bird hunting.

I've watched the video, read through the whole thread.

I grew up on shotguns, I'm very comfortable with them. There was a time I would've said I was proficient with one. Maybe not Thunder Ranch graduate level proficient, but I could've emptied a 12ga 870 into a man-sized target in just a few seconds and single loaded off a side saddle at speed, buck or slug.

As much as I like and respect the power of shotguns, as much time as I have not just hunting, but doing actual killing with one and seeing what they can do, there's just about no scenario I can imagine where I'm picking one over an 11.5" suppressed AR with 30rds or 40rds of 72gr OTM. I've also decided not to base my defensive firearm choices off what gunrag or guntube guys have to say about what a jury thinks.

Unless you can put in the time behind a tactical shotgun in defensive training/range time I wouldn't recommend one.
Shotguns are also less maneuverable, on average 6" longer than a collapsed AR.

Funny how so many people recommend 100-200 rounds of your chosen defensive ammo to insure reliability in your pistol or AR, but this is often not addressed or completely ignored when talking about shotguns. With some buckshot being 7-8 bucks for 5 rounds, well you do the math.

So it begs the question. Are shotgun better or just better for the people who can't or won't put in the time to train with a pistol?

Well, partly due to this Para thread, I decided to get a 1301 Mod 2 sooner than later, bought it last weekend. I am glad I bought this gun, it is an amazing shotgun.



Broke it in on Monday with grouping slugs, 25 yrds, at my indoor range, picked Remington Slugger as my choice. Today, I tested it for different 00 Buckshot (and birdshot) and came up with these (8" target on std print paper). First was #8 Gun Club birdshot and it spread 1-2" beyond paper at 7 yards. I also shot Rio 00 Buck and at 7 rds, it was a 6" group, 15 yrds, beyond paper.

Here are the next two 00 buck-





As you can see, the Federal FliteControl patterns very well, but the 1301 can only load 6 of these shells in the tube. The Hornady Critical Defense pattterns just fine as well, but I can load 7 rds into the tube (it is slightly shorter than the FliteControl). I decided to use the Hornady for H.D., that 7th rd is the deciding factor. Again, the 1301 Mod 2 is quite a gun, quite a departure from my Mossberg 590.

That is sweet oddball. A great home defense tool. What does something like that cost?
I have wanted a Benelli M2 for a long time. For under $1000 that seems like a good deal relatively speaking.

I have a surplus Remington 870EPM that looks like some old Elmer Fudd gun that is my first choice coming down my hallway.

Not even a mag extension. 3"- #4 turkey, 00buck, 00buck and a slug in the tube plus tha bandolier on the coat hook.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
That is sweet oddball. A great home defense tool. What does something like that cost?
I have wanted a Benelli M2 for a long time. For under $1000 that seems like a good deal relatively speaking.

$1699 for the 1301. Yes, pricey, but I was willing to pay it, no regrets. The Beretta A300 Ultima Patrol is very similar, hundreds cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
$1699 for the 1301.

But can be found online for ~$1400.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
The Beretta A300 Ultima Patrol is very similar, hundreds cheaper.

Available for ~$900. Around 35% less money, but not 35% less capable. It represents the better bang for the buck between the two.

I think we fret too much over the capacity of a shotgun. We're not John Wick or Bryan Mills, fighting off platoons of well armed invaders, or storming the beaches at Normandy. A shotgun has plenty of capacity; its NOT TEOTWAWKI.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
But his point about a shotgun being thought of differently by jurys is valid. Like it or not.

Which is odd, considering you can put, like, 160 holes in somebody with one.

I wonder if jurors view black plastic stocked shotguns differently than traditional wood. I'm sure either is going to play better than the demonized "assault rifle". I've been seriously considering replacing my Rem 870 with a 1301. Looks like they've really got that one dialed in.

Got my 1301 10 years ago and paid $900 for it, which was probably too much at the time. It’s a Gen 1, but I got the Nordic Comp mag extension and bolt release shroud pretty quickly, and it’s just as capable at slinging shells as the $1400+ Mod 2. Picked up the Mod 2 handguard and the Pro lifter on sale so soon it will be a Mod 1.5.

Have to agree with 92FSTech: these platforms are to compliment each other and provide situationally determinable options. I have always relied on the PD "triad" - a semi-auto pistol, and AR and a 12-gauge pump.

I'd love a 1301 Tactical, but all I have is my 20" 590A1. It's big and heavy; I'd rather grab something lighter and faster with higher capacity for HD, even though it would royally ruin someone's day.

It would also ruin my day. I hate cleaning up blood and doing drywall. What a PITA.