8 shots of nearly 9mm ammo in a tightly controlled pattern well-aimed is very effective

I always direct new firearms owners looking for home defense firearms to shotguns. And for recoil concerns, I advise them to use reduced recoil loads. 00 Buck and 000 Buck are what I advise as well.

If the shotgun is designated to fill a car/truck role, then I advise them to put some slugs in the the bandoleer.

Remington 870 Police models and Mossberg 500's are my top recommendations.

Anyone who wants a Benelli or a Beretta has enough experience to know what they want. Although I don't have a M4, it's on my list of future purchases.

For now, these will do...




Tony.

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I always direct new firearms owners looking for home defense firearms to shotguns.

And that's where I strongly disagree.

It takes significantly more training time to become proficient with a shotgun, compared to an AR. It also has significantly greater recoil, even with low recoil loads. And even training doesn't totally obviate the inherent drawbacks like low capacity, slower followup shots, and slower reloads.

Whereas an AR15 with a red dot is right about as simple as one can get for a home defense long gun for a new shooter, and the modularity and low recoil means that it can work for anyone of any size/age/physical capability.

I base this opinion on my years of teaching police cadets on both the shotgun and the AR, and seeing how slow nearly all cadets are to adapt to the clunky and overly complicated manual of arms for the shotgun, compared to the AR. (Even though they get more training time with the shotgun than the average new shotgun owner would...)

Sure, one can get to a sufficient level of competency with a shotgun, like you and I have already. But it takes more time than the average new owner or average police cadet is likely going to spend. And it's perishable, so it requires not just the greater initial training investment, but also greater ongoing investment to remain proficient. Most gun owners/cadets are just not "gun guys" like we are, so that's unlikely to happen.


It's analogous to the well-intentioned but misguided advice I frequently see for new/smaller/older shooters to just get a revolver. Especially a J frame! There are just too many inherent drawbacks (capacity, reload time, sights, etc.), greater felt recoil, and a steeper learning curve, compared to a modern semiauto handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by benny6:
I always direct new firearms owners looking for home defense firearms to shotguns.

And that's where I strongly disagree.

It takes significantly more training time to become proficient with a shotgun, compared to an AR. It also has significantly greater recoil, even with low recoil loads. And even training doesn't totally obviate the inherent drawbacks like low capacity, slower followup shots, and slower reloads. ....

Absolutely. And +1 for all of Rogue's following paragraphs. There's no debate that a shotgun is an effective firearm. But when a person is included in the firearm/ammo/sights/shooter system, an AR15 (or similar) has a boatload of advantages.

Hey Benny, what's the mount you have the Surefire on in that picture? That looks like it would work well for my M1S90.

Well, my opinion isn't always the most popular or correct one. Thanks for sharing your real-world experience on training new shooters.

The mount is a Mesa Tactical magazine clamp with pic rail.
https://mesatactical.com/produ...remington-12-ga.html

Make sure you pick the option with the pic rail.

In addition, I use a pistol grip adapter and use a Kynshot hydraulic recoil buffer tube. It makes 3" magnum loads feel like target loads. It significantly reduced recoil to a pleasant experience and not a painful one.
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...otgun-recoil-buffer/

Tony.

I view the shotgun and the rifle as complimentary platforms. I want both as each can be more appropriate than the other depending upon circumstances. For a long gun to defend my home, Where everything is going to be inside of 10 yards, I'll take my 870 every time. It shoulders and aims instinctively for me, and delivers a crippling payload with each pull of the trigger at that range. That answer would probably be different for my wife or daughter, though.

I agree that training is an issue. The manual of arms, administrative handling, and reload techniques take more time to master than an AR, but with practice it can be accomplished. I'm also not sure how important the reload really is for a HD type situation. If you get to the point where you've sent 4-6 buckshot loads downrange in your own house and you've still got bad guys coming at you, you've got a really bad problem that even a rifle probably isn't going to fix. They've clearly got the numbers, and any bad guy willing to keep coming over the eviscerated, buckshot riddled body of his dead buddy(s) is one hard SOB.

For an LE weapon, mastering the reload is a bigger deal.

The one nitpick I have with the video is the idea that shotguns are more reliable than an AR. If we're talking pump guns and Vietnam era ARs, maybe. But even then, when shotguns go down, they go down HARD. I've had very few reliability problems with ARs over the years, and almost all were pretty minor and easily corrected on the fly. This past spring, though, I had a student with an 870 that locked up to the point that I had to punch the pins out and remove the trigger group to clear it. Not something that can be done in the middle of a fight. Tube mags are ok when everything goes right, but they're the devil when they bind up, the shell latches fail, or the user induces a problem.

Thanks, Benny!

Certain discussions remind me of my experience during the NRA’s LE handgun instructor development course a couple of decades ago. One of the requirements was to present to the class an argument for why an imaginary law enforcement agency should adopt a particular handgun. The handgun we were to support was assigned at random, and mine was the 1911 pistol.

That was somewhat ironic because of all the guns on the list that was the one that would have been the least likely I would have ever actually recommended for law enforcement purposes.

When it came time for us students to present our arguments, I talked for nearly 10 minutes extolling the 1911’s supposed virtues for LE purposes. I could probably offer up plausible reasons for why the Colt 1862 blackpowder .36 caliber “Police” cap and ball revolver would be a good defensive weapon that would no doubt convince some people.

I have a Benelli M1 Super 90 that I purchased in 1987. It’s fast to shoot, the recoil is moderated somewhat, it’s reliable with everything from light birdshot to heavy magnums, and it’s a great gun for games requiring a shotgun. Except for that purpose it lies in neglected repose in a safe and never even sees the light of day.

But to each his own, and we are fortunate that most of us (still) have options about such issues.

Mossberg Maverick 12ga, cylinder bore, 15yds because the longest shot I could take in my house is from the MBR door to the front door and it’s 14yds.



Yes the shotgun is difficult due to the increased recoil and the manual of arms, but I was an instructor and carried the shotgun as a cop and in the USCG. I know exactly what it can do, and what it can’t.

And see my signature line…

Mike - Interesting pattern. When I was patterning the flight control round in my Benelli M2 and Super Nova, I experienced the same type patterns. That one stray pellet occurred multiple times from both shotguns at various distances. I was patterning with a fixed IC choke (Super Nova Tactical) or a screw in Mod or IC choke (M2) and saw this one stray pellet multiple times at various distances. Guess it is just something that happens with the nine pellet vs. eight pellet flight control loads from time to time.

I will say that the Federal Flight Control did hold the tightest and most consistent patterns in both shotguns based on the different buckshot loads I patterned.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigarmsp226,

For the sake of discussion I’ll point out that if it’s important to have patterns with buckshot that are as tight as possible, here is an example of the sort of patterns possible with AR style rifles and fired at 50 yards using high quality—but not top tier—ammunition.

Now you're just being silly

I understand why I would want an AR over a shotgun in a self defense situation, but a tight pattern with an AR at 50 yards just doesn't factor in for me. For me, I would chose a shotgun specifically because at 0-25 yards it does not tightly group. That is, if I'm shooting a bad guy I'm getting not the dime/nickel/quarter size diameter group of bullets I'd get with an AR but instead a 8/9 pellet fist sized grouping of f^ck you. And that's not before considering that the longest distance I can shoot in my house is somewhere between 12-15 yards, if that.

Like I said, I use an AR for this purpose, but its because my wife is not really able to use my 1301 like I can. If I lived alone, 1301 all the way.

quote:

Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
Mike - Interesting pattern. When I was patterning the flight control round in my Benelli M2 and Super Nova, I experienced the same type patterns. That one stray pellet occurred multiple times from both shotguns at various distances. I was patterning with a fixed IC choke (Super Nova Tactical) or a screw in Mod or IC choke (M2) and saw this one stray pellet multiple times at various distances. Guess it is just something that happens with the nine pellet vs. eight pellet flight control loads from time to time.

I will say that the Federal Flight Control did hold the tightest and most consistent patterns in both shotguns based on the different buckshot loads I patterned.

It’s commonly referred to as “the 9th pellet flyer”. Paul Harrell spoke to it, and I’ve seen several others. I’ve reloaded my own buckshot and found I didn’t get the one stray pellet when I stack them by 2s and use buffer in the shell. But the Federal 00buck Flight Control I have is 9 pellet. And BTW, it happens with all the 9 pellet I have used or seen from the cheapest military contract federal,Winchester with powder, 1/2” fiber wad, pellets, crimp- to the best:Federal Flight Control.

It’s a weird thing, and only after looking into it, did I do research such that I began loading my own, and found it to be true-9th pellet flyer about 80+% of the time.

Close your eyes and imagine this:

This is a screw.

This is a nail.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

This is a hammer.

This is a screwdriver.


I can use the hammer to deal with the screw, I can use the screwdriver to deal with the nail.

Not the appropriate tool for the problem, but it could work. I'd rather use the right tool for the job.

Nothing against Shotguns, I have a few and love them.
Nothing against AR's, Pistols or long guns, I got a few of each of those as well.
I like having the option of multiple tools for applications.

Timely thread. I'm one of those who switched from an AR15 in the bedroom to a 18.5" Mossberg 590 shotgun. But last month, I went to Scheels where they display their shotguns openly and handled a 1301 Mod 2 quite a bit and was blown away at the build quality, the solidness. And it was noticeably shorter (almost 2") and a little bit lighter than my Mossberg. I am seriously looking at this new semi-auto, something I never considered in previous years.

Here is hickok45 recently explaining his preference for shotgun for H.D., of course a 1301. One point he brings up that Reeves doesn't is the noise factor inside the house.

The 1301 is noticeably lighter than the A300, though I'm not sure why. I know the gas systems are different.


This is Winchester XB121, a 2.75" load of 1 buck, 16 pellets at a nominal 1250 fps.

One press of the trigger. You tell me.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The 1301 is noticeably lighter than the A300, though I'm not sure why. I know the gas systems are different.

Comparing similar configurations - A300 Patrol versus 1301 Tactical - the 1301 is only ~6 ounces lighter. (7.1 vs. 6.7 pounds)

A portion of that is going to be the extra 0.6" in barrel length on the A300 (19.1 vs. 18.5). I assume most of the rest of the weight savings lies in the more modern/efficient/streamlined gas system, considering the A300 gas system dates back 50+ years.

Six ounces is noticeable. I've handled the two shotguns side by side and didn't need a scale or a spec sheet to confirm the difference.