Took the toy out to the indoor range today for a quick 100 rounds for a sight in and test run. Shot about 20 rounds for sight in unsuppressed and the rest suppressed. Ran great with no issues. Trigger was pretty good and better than the OEM triggers in my Scorpion and SP45. Felt recoil didn’t change noticeably when suppressed, although a bit of noticeable gas with the smokey 124gr Blazer Brass suppressed. Gas wasn’t noticeable with subsonic 147gr Lawman. Hard to quantify the recoil as I was shooting it by itself. Really need to take it out with the Scorpion and HK SP5 to do a direct comparison.

Can is a Wolfman in the short configuration on a tri-lug adapter. Holosun AEMS on a low mount to get a lower co-witness as the flip up sights are shorter than normal AR height. With an AR co-witness height mount, the sights aren’t even visible in the optic window, so need to use a low mount, or a high see-through mount.

My feeling is that it’s definitely better than the Scorpion, and I think I’d buy a Kuna over a SP9A3.

I have “almost” purchased several PCC’s, but went home empty handed for one nit-pic reason or another. This one checks the boxes for price, action type and ambi ergo’s.

I have been looking at PCC's for the last 6 months. This looks awesome. I want one badly!!!

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
A Scorpion has been on my wishlist for years, under $1k this could take its place.

I've been pretty immersed in the Scorpion community for several years now. I own one that I tuned and tinkered with to the point where I think it's as good as it's gonna be, and I'm pretty well up on all the current manufacturing issues and the aftermarket stuff. My genuine advice to you and anyone else considering one is to skip over the Scorpion platform, full stop. In 2015, it made a lot of sense. In 2025, it would be among my last picks.

Dwill, thanks for the range report. I look forward to future feedback from you. I'm impressed with what I'm seeing on these so far. Not seeing any problems yet.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
A Scorpion has been on my wishlist for years, under $1k this could take its place.

I've been pretty immersed in the Scorpion community for several years now. I own one that I tuned and tinkered with to the point where I think it's as good as it's gonna be, and I'm pretty well up on all the current manufacturing issues and the aftermarket stuff. My genuine advice to you and anyone else considering one is to skip over the Scorpion platform, full stop. In 2015, it made a lot of sense. In 2025, it would be among my last picks.

Dwill, thanks for the range report. I look forward to future feedback from you. I'm impressed with what I'm seeing on these so far. Not seeing any problems yet.

Thanks, looking forward to seeing a Kuna in person to handle it. Bonus if they happen to have a Scorpion to side-by-side compare

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I've been pretty immersed in the Scorpion community for several years now. I own one that I tuned and tinkered with to the point where I think it's as good as it's gonna be, and I'm pretty well up on all the current manufacturing issues and the aftermarket stuff. My genuine advice to you and anyone else considering one is to skip over the Scorpion platform, full stop. In 2015, it made a lot of sense. In 2025, it would be among my last picks.

I 100% agree. In early 2018 when I was shopping for a MP5 clone (Zenith became a no show), I purchased a Scorpion EVO3 S2 Micro w/brace instead, and slapped on a bunch of HB Industries parts and it was a very fun gun, shot it a lot. Then I bought an HK SP5 a couple of years later, and quickly the Scorpion became a neglected gun ever since, I eventually gave it to my son. The Kuna is a Scorpion killer, no doubt, and it is tempting to get one, especially for the price. But since I already have the SP5, spending the bucks is not an easy decision to make, likely not.

Got my approved F1 this morning. Submitted 4/19, approved 4/23. Now need to get it engraved and figure out the stock option. Got the stock end plate for the SI brace on the way, so may just use that. Also have a Lage folding stock on the way and see how that looks.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Got my approved F1 this morning. Submitted 4/19, approved 4/23. Now need to get it engraved and figure out the stock option. Got the stock end plate for the SI brace on the way, so may just use that. Also have a Lage folding stock on the way and see how that looks.

Badass! Looking forward to some pics. I don't like how the OEM stock looks, so I have no interest in one of those, but I think the gun is interesting looking and will pair nicely with probably quite a few options.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
Then I bought an HK SP5 a couple of years later, and quickly the Scorpion became a neglected gun ever since, I eventually gave it to my son. The Kuna is a Scorpion killer, no doubt, and it is tempting to get one, especially for the price. But since I already have the SP5, spending the bucks is not an easy decision to make, likely not.

Some random thoughts on these statements.

I have also thought about just sticking my Scorpion in the back of the safe and giving it to my son when he's old enough, but I do wonder about giving him a gun I know has developed a bit of a reputation for blowing up. Got a friend in my shooting group who's getting married later this year and is saving money, but really badly wants a 9mm PCC and asked after it. May revert mine back to factory and sell it to him for stupid cheap with full disclosure. He knows all the reasons why I'm not enamored with it anymore, so that's not really a worry. Either way, I'm ready to move on from the Scorpion platform.

I am intrigued with the Kuna, but I already have the Stribog SP9A3, which the Kuna, to all appearances so far, is basically a Mk 2 version of that gun. If I hadn't bought into the platform nine months ago, I'd be getting a Kuna, no question. However, with a Form 1 and a bunch of aftermarket stuff into it, I'm kind of committed.

CZ, to me, really dropped the ball with the US civilian market over the last few years. They knew the lack of a safety sear in the Scorpion could lead to OOB's. ATF insisting it was an auto sear and thus requiring it's removal to be imported back in 2015 also meant the gun could fire out of battery. CZ did nothing to engineer a fix to this. They knew their metallurgy was crap and they were exporting guns with soft bolts where the hammer peens over the firing pin block, further contributing to OOB's. They've done nothing to fix this over the last five years or so. They had to know the market was going to move to delayed actions for this market segment because they suppress better, and if they'd been paying attention in the slightest, they'd have noticed that in the last two years, NFA approval times have dropped to nearly nothing. They also never made the promised parts and caliber exchange kits for the Bren 2 available and basically left all of us who own one holding our dicks with the introduction of the Bren 3, which has nothing to do with the Kuna, but everything to do with CZ as the manufacturer of the gun the Kuna is meant to wipe from the market. What's coming with this, CZ deserves 100% and then some.

Your mention of the SP5 is interesting, because where I started with all this was not wanting an MP5 clone, and after giving the other options a fair shake, I'm succumbing to the peer pressure and thinking I ought to pick up an MP5 clone. A number of the guys in my shooting group have them, and after getting to shoot several of them suppressed, I really want one. I mentioned in another thread in the Suppressors subforum the other day that while I still think the manual of arms, ergonomics, trigger and safety are still all dogshit, nothing else is an MP5, and like hrcjon said, there are just some guns you should own if you can, and an MP5 is one of them. One of my friends bought a Hi Tec built MP5SD clone along with their can, and he's bringing that to a shoot Saturday. I've always been really enamored with the MP5SD and I'm looking forward to trying out his with a mixture of excitement and dread. It'll tell me pretty quickly whether my investment into the MP5 clone thing is going to be cheap or eye-wateringly expensive.

Pretty much final SBR configuration. Stock from A3 Industries and Battlearms handstop. Hanshon Brothers 3-lug mount.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dwill104,

Ok, Smudge.

This or SP5/SP5K?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Ok, Smudge.

This or SP5/SP5K?

For you? Or for me, since I went on a tangent about wanting an MP5 clone?

Before I answer, bear in mind you're asking a guy who can't resist tinkering. I've tried, I can't.

For me, I dunno. MP5 tangent - I got to shoot a couple Zenith MP5's on Saturday, one in the standard size with a Magpul lower and the other being my friend's SD build from Hi Tec with the 12" can. They were both suppressed, the full size with my Ecco Phoenix 10 baffle, and to both the shooter and everyone around us, neither sounded any louder than the other, but the SD was shooting 115gr stuff and the other, 147gr subs. That's kind of what it does, being an integral and all. The SD had a very slightly lower tone, but I'm gonna say that just says more good things about the Ecco Phoenix TL. Both were nice. I just can't get over the clunky manual of arms and horrible trigger. Guys will crap all over bullpup triggers and drool over stamped HK's, it makes no sense to me. I've now shot an MP5, MP5F, MP5K, and an MP5SD5 (yes, all clones or parts kit builds) and I think I got the MP5 itch out of my system for now.

I also affirmed that the Stribog I have been tuning does just fine when clean, lubed, using Pmags, and shooting round nose ammo. That seems like a lot of qualifiers, but I run it suppressed and want silly quiet and as smooth of a recoil impulse as possible. I'm using a high backpressure can, and I guess when you add all that, up, the delayed blowback suppressed 9mm thing just gets really dirty, which can mean finnicky. I shot up probably five hundred rounds through it and had one failure to feed about halfway through. I sprayed the bolt and chamber with Rem Oil and it ran just fine the rest of the night.

Since the Kuna is aimed at both the Scorpion and the Stribog's market since it's basically both rolled into one and improved, I think the following comparisons and musings are valid. As it is currently, I'd put my SP9A3 right up there with an MP5, honestly. It's not quite as soft recoiling, but it cycles faster and seems to come back on target faster. It isn't about the amount of recoil to me, it's about how easy it is to keep it on target when shooting fast, because that's honestly what these guns are all about. The Stribog is pretty easy to shoot faster in semi auto than any MP5 clone I've messed with so far.

Now, where does the Kuna rank against that? Well, I haven't see a lot of comparison between the two yet. Last week, a guy trying to start a YouTube channel posted this video in the Stribog subreddit and there was some discussion. The Stribog is an S(K), and it has the HBI rubber short stroke buffer in it, so it's not an apples to apples comparison. I mentioned and he agreed that the Stribog didn't jump around quite as much. I imagine when the aftermarket for the Kuna spools up, tuning it for mousefart recoil impulse will be more than possible. His Stribog isn't as tuned as a Stribog can get, either. There's a different locking block and a dual recoil spring damping system available (in fact, I should have one installed in mine by this coming weekend, and thus everything there is to do to "tune" a Stribog for shooting suppressed), so you can take it a lot further than he has with his, if that tells you anything. I'd like to see more comparisons done, but it looks like if you currently want the absolute smoothest shooting delayed action 9mm gun, it might still be the SP9A3, but you're going to spend a damn sight more than a Kuna out of the box. So in terms of value, I'd say I'd put the Kuna above the Stribog.



If you're asking for you, then I'll address it directly as best I can: It depends on what you want it for and what you want to do with it. If you're going to pick up a registered sear pack, get an MP5. If you're looking for something with cool factor or nostalgia, get the MP5. If you want something you can have the Cadillac experience shooting suppressed at a leisurely pace, get the MP5. For anything more serious than that, I think these days, it just isn't the winner. Without a Kuna in hand and going off Dwill104's feedback since he has a Stribog (though in .45 or 10mm, I forget, but more or less the next iterative upgrade to the SP9A3, which I have), I'd have to say at this point, the Kuna. On paper, it's an SP9A3 Mk2 - they fixed everything about the Stribog that Grand Power still hasn't gotten right.

At some point, probably soon, the aftermarket is going to pick up the torch for the Kuna and run with it. Both Lingle and HBI responded to me directly on Reddit when I tagged them in a discussion the day the Kuna got announced. I'd be shocked if we don't see some conversion lowers, stock adapters, and recoil damping stuff before the year is out. Guys like KDG will undoubtedly make handguard extensions for the nested can thing. I know it's early, but given the price and how fast they're getting them in people's hands, I can see the Kuna supplanting the Scorpion and the Stribog for this market segment. If I had to rank the choices in order, MP5, then Stribog, then Kuna being probably my top pick, and that's going off how well it seems to function feeding every kind of ammo and for the potential aftermarket.

quote:

If you're going to pick up a registered sear pack, get an MP5. If you're looking for something with cool factor or nostalgia, get the MP5. If you want something you can have the Cadillac experience shooting suppressed at a leisurely pace, get the MP5. For anything more serious than that, I think these days, it just isn't the winner.

Is it safe to say that prices are subconsciously infiltrating the process here? Is the MP5 really not up to the "more serious" tasks that the Kuna is able to tackle "these days"? If they were the same money, or even if the MP5 could be had for ~$1500, would this conversation be the same?

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Is it safe to say that prices are subconsciously infiltrating the process here? Is the MP5 really not up to the "more serious" tasks that the Kuna is able to tackle "these days"? If they were the same money, or even if the MP5 could be had for ~$1500, would this conversation be the same?

https://atlanticfirearms.com/mkecentury-ap5-lt-pistol

https://www.sportsmansoutdoors...vad=211021_a4153c6e1

https://gunzonedeals.com/produ...le-gunprodeals.com-1


I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. They're all sub $900 and I knew that when I typed up that post. Also, I'm just gonna say it: Maybe Jljones could train his ass off and out-run everyone on this forum with an MP5 in a head to head match, but he would almost certainly be a lot faster with either of the other two options. He shoots on a different level from you or I, and I tried to answer him with that in mind.

Ah, my bad. I meant a SP5. I know the other options are out there at lesser price points.

Right, I have no brand loyalty and I'm definitely not an HK guy. I had an actual HK91 and I sold it because number one, I think they're kind of a crappy rifle truth be told (and the MP5 is just a miniature version of it). Secondly, I have handled and checked out enough of the clones that I determined I wasn't missing anything other than the "flex" of having the "real deal" if I eventually decided I needed to have one of the repros/clones. I have the same feelings about the MP5 and it's various iterations. The Zeniths are made on HK tooling, as far as I'm concerned, the only thing you're missing by buying an AP5 instead of an SP5 is the ability to brag about it being an "actual HK."

That's going to make H&K purists mad and I don't care.

That's one of those weird things. I don't have an MP5-type SBR simply because HKs are too spendy. I don't want a "clone".

Funny though, considering I don't mind a "clone" build of a SIG 551 or 553. Though I still yearned-for, and eventually got the "real thing". And, in the case of the 55X, the clone route isn't exactly cheaper.

I think I am probably not alone, in being a guy who wouldn't accept a substitute for an HK, in the case of the MP5. HK or nothing, when it comes to that gun.

Honestly, when it comes to SMGs and PCCs, I don't know why the mag-in-the-grip guns don't get more love. Seems like a boon.

Dwill104's Kuna looks pretty good.

My PCC experience is limited to a RRA Colt SMG build. I don't have it anymore because it didn't really do anything for me. My next "PCC" would be an SBR B&T USW-A1 or FLUX thing. Mag-in-the-grip FTW.

Well, if you have a MP5, there is no need for an auto sear because it’s already a machine gun. Semi-auto HKs or clones are not MP5s (a pet peeve of mine). Also, regarding the guns in civilian hands, almost all, if not all, are converted semi-auto guns and aren’t real MP5s either.

Regarding the SP5 (and clones) vs the Kuna or Stribog, I’m not sure about the “anything more serious” argument. The HK isn’t a range toy. It’s a semi-auto version of a combat proven SMG that was used by elite military units all over the world, something neither the Kuna or Stribog are not, and may never be. It’s reliable, accurate, and does the job. In my experience (have a SP5, SP5K-PDW, and a Z-5RS), the recoil impulse of the HK roller locking system is a little softer than the Kuna.

That said, whether this gun or that is better for a particular person depends on what the person is looking for in the gun. For all its positives, the SP5 design suffers most from not being “modern”. That means no pic rail, fixed iron sights, no last round bolt hold open, and a crappy spongy trigger. It’s a 60 year old design, no way around that. Plus, it’s expensive if you get a factory HK. Both of those things may turn people off, and that’s fair because people are different.

Handled the Kuna at NRA last week. These type of guns are not really my specialty but it felt great in the hands. Agree the safety was stiff but figured it might break in some. For a grand, seems like a lot of gun. I want a 9mm PCC but I want a few other things a little more.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Semi-auto HKs or clones are not MP5s (a pet peeve of mine).

Yeah, hrcjon gave me the same business about me calling my PS90 a P90. You guys can just be peeved.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Regarding the SP5 (and clones) vs the Kuna or Stribog, I’m not sure about the “anything more serious” argument. The HK isn’t a range toy. It’s a semi-auto version of a combat proven SMG that was used by elite military units all over the world, something neither the Kuna or Stribog are not, and may never be. It’s reliable, accurate, and does the job.

Well, just the other day in the PCC thread, Jljones talked about exactly what made the MP5 a combat-proven SMG used by elite military units all over the world, and it's that it is so extremely controllable on full auto. In semi auto, what does it have over the other two? Well, it's got a little softer recoil impulse, but for that, every other thing about it has been improved on by newer designs. You say so yourself that's 60 year old tech. It's extremely cool and there's nothing else that is an MP5, but I wasn't even thinking about the Pic rail and irons when I said what I said. It loses to nearly everything newer just on the trigger, manual of arms and overall manipulation for me. If we're calling the improvements in that regard "modern," then the kind of shooting Jones does has similarly evolved since the start of his career as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
That said, whether this gun or that is better for a particular person depends on what the person is looking for in the gun.

We 100% agree on that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
In my experience (have a SP5, SP5K-PDW, and a Z-5RS), the recoil impulse of the HK roller locking system is a little softer than the Kuna.

I figured it would be. Again, I think it's just a matter of time before the aftermarket goes ham on it, and there will be all kinds of stuff to tune it ever further.

That Youtuber posted another video about an hour ago comparing the two a little further. He said hands down, the Stribog has less recoil. You can see it pretty clearly in the video. It also seems a fair bit quieter, though I wonder if that's a barrel length issue.