While the 9mm "PCC" subgun-esque market has a lot of choices, there aren't a ton of great choices for a roller delayed action. There's basically the MP5 clone, and the Stribog A3. More recently in the last six months, the Nexus EVO, which is just a Scorpion with two ball bearings shoehorned into the receiver, and it retains all that reciprocating mass that is that big honkin' bolt. Maybe one or two others that aren't real contenders. I've been on this kick for basically the last year, and the lack of choices when I bought my Stribog late last summer surprised me. PSA showed off several more straight blowback guns at SHOT last month, and there's a lot of discussion about how they've missed the mark. There were rumors that CZ was going to introduce an updated Scorpion at SHOT this year that features a roller delayed action, but they didn't, and also wouldn't answer questions about it.

In the last two years, more people have bought suppressors than all of the prior existence of the NFA put together. Everyone is getting cans for their guns, and guys like me are discovering that direct blowback 9mm guns kinda suck as suppressor hosts. They're overly jumpy for what they are, and there's a lot of port pop unless you throw a flow-through can on it. Sure, you can buy a $1,500 suppressor to put on a $700 gun, but it feels a bit backwards. The options for hydraulic delayed 9mm guns is $1,500 on the very, very low end with the CMMG stuff, and it goes rapidly up from there to B&T money. The "roller delayed for a thousand bucks" price point has been completely ignored. Again, it's basically a Turkish MP5 clone or a Stribog A3 for that money.

On paper, the Kuna is essentially what I built my Stribog into. If it proves to be reliable, and comes to market for a street price under a grand, I think it'll do very, very well. MSRP around a grand, MSRP on magazines at $25, you're in a good place as far as asking price. I can see HBI making stock adapters for the popular choices like the B&T APC and Magpul Zhukov. Lingle putting out a lower that feeds from Scorpion magazines and takes AR triggers and grips is a no-brainer. I think it's a contender. A lot of the discussion I'm seeing so far is getting hung up on it having the Springfield name on it, but according to the interview, it's all HS Produkt. That's a good thing. I'll be watching this one with interest.

I will be a buyer. I like my scorpion a lot, but as you mention, that big rolling mass takes a toll.

quote:

If it proves to be reliable, and comes to market for a street price under a grand, I think it'll do very, very well.

Do you think that's possible? It seems to me that nothing really "good" can be had for less than 1k. I hope I am wrong. Though I am not in the market, It'd be cool for those who are.

I saw this last night and wanted to post it but I was on my phone and couldn't embed. I'm extremely excited about this...if it ends up on shelves for under $1k I'll probably be buying one.

Straight blowback 9mm is not the way to go. I know there are some designs out there that make it manageable, but having a delayed system makes it so much better. My CMMG (which I put together myself for way less than $1500) has been awesome. It's a 16" gun on an Anderson lower that takes endomag pmag conversions. You can drop the upper on any standard AR lower and it'll work...it's great for training on close range steel or the indoor range where we can't shoot rifle rounds. And even as a 16" gun it's lighter and handier than an 8" MPX. I absolutely love that rifle...but that's what it is, a rifle.

This thing is a subgun. It's more compact, I assume lighter, and looks to be ergonomically well-designed. And no buffer tube so I'd assume an internal recoil system with less bounce and more flexibility in stock design. Yeah it's proprietary, but if you're trying to make something purpose-built and unique, it pretty much has to be. Hopefully it's the modernized and improved take on the MP5 that the MPX wanted to be but never really achieved.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I saw this last night and wanted to post it but I was on my phone and couldn't embed. I'm extremely excited about this...if it ends up on shelves for under $1k I'll probably be buying one.

Straight blowback 9mm is not the way to go. I know there are some designs out there that make it manageable, but having a delayed system makes it so much better. My CMMG (which I put together myself for way less than $1500) has been awesome. It's a 16" gun on an Anderson lower that takes endomag pmag conversions. You can drop the upper on any standard AR lower and it'll work...it's great for training on close range steel or the indoor range where we can't shoot rifle rounds. And even as a 16" gun it's lighter and handier than an 8" MPX. I absolutely love that rifle...but that's what it is, a rifle.

Same. I love my CMMG. SBRed a lower for it and went with a 5" and a can. My most fun range toy.

I have seen reports on them eating ejector springs, but I haven't killed one yet. I have a 10 pack of replacement springs just in case.

If you roll your own CMMG radial delay, it is basically the same cost as any other AR build.

Barrels and BCGs are available al a carte from CMMG.

A Scorpion has been on my shortlist for a long time.
This looks quite interesting, as a pretty comparable platform option.
The dual purpose flip-up sights are a neat touch, too.

Make a pistol version, to avoid having to deal with the SBR side of things, and keep it sub-$1k street price & it'll make my shortlist if it proves to be solid.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
If you roll your own CMMG radial delay, it is basically the same cost as any other AR build.

Barrels and BCGs are available al a carte from CMMG.

Yep. Last I checked the bolt/barrel combo is $400. Maybe not the cheapest AR BCG/Barrel setup on the market, but not bad considering what you're getting. After that it's just normal AR stuff...go as crazy or as basic as you want.

The 9mm pmags aren't cheap...IIRC about $50/pop, but they work great. They also sell them as just the internals so you can convert an existing 5.56 PMAG if you want to. Or pair it with your favorite Glock mag lower and use those to your heart's content. I don't have any Glocks and the training value of a regular PMAG footprint appealed to me, so I went that route.

As an AR training rifle it makes great sense, and it's stupid fun to shoot. But I see this thing scratching a different itch...more filling the role of that MP5 that I could never bring myself to spend the money on.

^ Am I reading that correctly? 5.56 pattern mags that take 9mm?
Are these sold as such via Magpul, or conversion only?

That would make it a bit more appealing, to not have to go to a dedicated PCC lower, if going the AR route.

Could convince me to do an AR pistol & look at this route as an alternate.

I think you are referring to the EndoMags and yes its an insert that makes a 5.56 pmag into a 9mm AR mag. There are two versions depending on your upper. They seem to work pretty well in my experience.

Interesting, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
^ Am I reading that correctly? 5.56 pattern mags that take 9mm?
Are these sold as such via Magpul, or conversion only?

That would make it a bit more appealing, to not have to go to a dedicated PCC lower, if going the AR route.

Could convince me to do an AR pistol & look at this route as an alternate.

Yes, that's correct. It's a standard .223 PMAG body with the internals replaced to feed 9mm. I probably have close to 5,000 rounds combined through the three that I have and they've been flawless. Here's a knowledgebase article on them from CMMG:

https://support.cmmg.com/what-...-conversion-magazine


And here's more info and a purchase link from MEAN arms:

https://www.meanarms.com/products/detail/endomag-9mm

Yea roller delayed sounds nice,but having been around mp5's for awhile all these new designs I get left with what's the design, which parts are tunable, and actually available. You say clone but I doubt its an actual clone of an mp5. At least on the MP5/SP5 we can get rollers in a zillion sizes, locking blocks in a bunch of different angles, etc. Just because its roller locked doesn't mean a lot to me till we see what is the design and what is the support (example P220 on his stribog). Sounds good, let's see what we get. So far in my experience MP5/SP5 run well suppressed, CMMG does pretty well, B&T is excellent. I then JP has a roller delayed one but I have not looked too much at the details to see if its really like an MP5 style bolt, but of course its in the price section of why.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

If it proves to be reliable, and comes to market for a street price under a grand, I think it'll do very, very well.

Do you think that's possible? It seems to me that nothing really "good" can be had for less than 1k. I hope I am wrong. Though I am not in the market, It'd be cool for those who are.

Like the vast majority of “Springfield “ products it will be affordable because it will be an import from someplace like Croatia or Turkey

They say up front its from Croatia. That doesn't seem a big negative to me.

HBI and Lingle confirmed today on Reddit that it's on their radar. Lingle went so far as to say "We were thinking the same thing " about a lower for it that does Scorpion mags and AR triggers, so that's the two big aftermarket companies that support the Euro guns checking in. Looking good there.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
You say clone but I doubt its an actual clone of an mp5

Oh, either you misunderstood me, or I'm misunderstanding you. When I said "MP5 clone" I wasn't referring to the Kuna, but actual MP5 clones like the MKE, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Sounds good, let's see what we get.

Absolutely. I don't want to count my chickens before they're hatched, but someone bringing something like this to the market is encouraging. Hopefully other manufacturers get off their ass and start innovating.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
So far in my experience MP5/SP5 run well suppressed, CMMG does pretty well, B&T is excellent. I then JP has a roller delayed one but I have not looked too much at the details to see if its really like an MP5 style bolt, but of course its in the price section of why.

Yeah, I'm confident it can be done around the thousand dollar mark, and if someone actually does it and does it well, they'll command a good chunk of the PCC market. Which speaks to this:

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:

quote:

If it proves to be reliable, and comes to market for a street price under a grand, I think it'll do very, very well.

Do you think that's possible? It seems to me that nothing really "good" can be had for less than 1k. I hope I am wrong. Though I am not in the market, It'd be cool for those who are.

I absolutely do, and why not? I'm not saying $500, but if it's around the $850-950 range, I think that's doable. It's a mostly polymer 9mm gun. At a grand or a little under, they're undercutting B&T in price and beating CZ in features at a similar price point to the Scorpion. I really do think targeting that price bracket is the move.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
A Scorpion has been on my shortlist for a long time.

Honestly, I think you missed the window on when that platform made sense. 2016 to 2020, I would've said "go for it." These days, there are better options on the market, and I say that as a guy who really liked mine until I got to compare it head to head against a lot of the other current options at a range day. Do yourself a favor and give it a miss unless you get a really stellar deal on one, which is also possible as a lot of guys are migrating all their aftermarket parts to Nexus EVO receivers, reassembling all the original stuff into a fully built gun and offloading them. I briefly considered it, but I don't love the platform enough that I can make the math work for me, especially factoring in a tax stamp for another receiver. If you do nothing but the receiver, you're still at $650 total for a receiver "upgrade" and a tax stamp. Of course, the receiver is supposedly only part of what makes it so good and you need to buy the $400 bolt, and I just don't think a thousand dollars more into a gun I'm pretty "meh" about makes any sense whatsoever.

HS Produkt makes some pretty good stuff; I've been extremely pleased with my Echelon and how it runs. If and when SCOTUS reverses all the anti semiauto bullshit legislation now behind the Iron Curtain, I wouldn't mind one of these in .40S&W. I've got cases of the caliber and this bugger would be a nice compliment to my .40 pistols.

I will likely be in on this! I will be in for 2 if the 10mm becomes a reality.

Not going to lie I will be in for the .40 and not the 9mm.
I have a couple 9mm PCCs at the moment.

I have a metric ton of .40 ammo so I think it will be fun.

Here's my questions for any new roller delayed design. We know from decades of experience and millions of rounds on the MP5 that you need different sized rollers to keep them running over real usage and wear and also you need some way to manage the different types of ammo and use (which HK does with the locking pieces but others might have a different method).
So how might this gun do that? Not sure till we see the internals. I know that P220Smudge was able to get one tuning part for the Stribog, but are wear parts also available? Other options?
Hopefully somebody will show us the mechanics of operation and the available options...

Ha! Taurus is getting in on the cheap roller delayed 9mm subgun thing, too! Just announced at a German trade show.



Would I buy one? Hell no, but this, the Nexus EVO, and the Kuna ought to be a message to the other big manufacturers: make an affordable delayed action 9mm. Someone in the Reddit thread mentioned that B&T is too proud of their hydraulic buffer systems to mess with rollers and I liked the reply to that: “use both.” My Stribog has a roller system and I also threw in the HBI buffer. Supposedly the smoothest shooting incarnation of this gun is what I have as far as locking inserts tuned for heavier bullets combined with a KDG dual spring recoil damper buffer. May yet try one of those. Anyways, an SPC9 with a roller delay system plus the hydraulic buffer and tunable to various bullet weights would be the tits.