The Galil Ace in 308 is worth a look. I've found myself wanting one. The left side charge is a pain for me being a lefty, but I did ok with the FAL reach under. I don't need to be Johnny Super Fast Mag Changer with a 308 battle rifle.

We’ll finally bought a 716 tread.

Congrats, let us know how you like it. What led you that direction?

Since i have only AR’s I thought it best to keep with a similar platform

Tread is hard to beat.

Concur with the POF Rogue and Galil Ace as well...I have both. Here's my Ace with OG IMI Galil stock:

When I built my AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor , it’s rare that any of my 308’s come out of the safe. The only 308 my arthritic shoulder can take nowadays is my SiG 716 DMR suppressed.

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
When I built my AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor , it’s rare that any of my 308’s come out of the safe. The only 308 my arthritic shoulder can take nowadays is my SiG 716 DMR suppressed.

Is there really that much more recoil?

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by kimberkid:
When I built my AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor , it’s rare that any of my 308’s come out of the safe. The only 308 my arthritic shoulder can take nowadays is my SiG 716 DMR suppressed.

Is there really that much more recoil?

The website Chuckhawks has a rifle recoil table for various calibers and loads. From what I've seen with calculate-it-yourself sites, the data is pretty good. The listed recoil energy for common 308 loads is 16-18 foot pounds. Chuckhawks doesn't include 6.5 Creedmoor, but it does include 260 Remington, which is virtually the same. Common 260 Remy loads are in the 12-13 foot pound range.

I have virtually identical 6.5 CM and 308 Win rifles. The 6.5CM's recoil is noticeably less. It's easier to keep 6.5CM sights on target, to spot my own impacts, and to spot my own trace. Coupled with the 6.5CM's superior flight ballistics, this is why 308 Win cannot compete against 6.5CM on the range.

quote:

Coupled with the 6.5CM's superior flight ballistics, this is why 308 Win cannot compete against 6.5CM on the range.

I understand there are some advantages after 5 or 600 yards but I wouldn't say "can't compete", am I wrong?
I am considering adding 6.5 CM to my mix but struggling whether it is worth it having a substantial investment in 308 in ammo, reloading supplies and weapons already owned.
FWIW, I don't hunt much and rarely shoot past 300 yds.
Doesn't mean I won't try it but from all the comparisons the major advantage is in uber long distances primarily on target shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Coupled with the 6.5CM's superior flight ballistics, this is why 308 Win cannot compete against 6.5CM on the range.

I understand there are some advantages after 5 or 600 yards but I wouldn't say "can't compete", am I wrong?

At longer distances the 6.5 shoots noticeably flatter and with less wind drift.
At closer distances the 6.5's lower recoil allows the shooter to keep sights on target better and to better spot his own impacts.

If the targets are fairly large at all distances, then the differences between the 2 cartridges don't matter all that much. But if the targets are small-ish at shorter distances, then with comparable shooter/rifle/sights/ammo the 6.5 shooter will perform better than the 308 shooter.

Along the same line with PRS/NRL/precision/steel type matches, 6.5 Creedmoor isn't competitive against the various 6mm bore cartridges. And yes, I have all three -- 308, 6.5mm, and 6mm bore rifles.

Something I've seen in matches. Place 2 MOA steel targets in a line at distances of 200, 300, 400, and 500 yards. Go prone, get comfy, get a timer, 1 or 2 shots per target, make your own wind calls. The guy with a 308 will consistently score worse than 6.5mm and 6mm rifles.

308 Win is still a decent chambering. It does a lot of things quite well. But smaller bores with similar powder capacity perform better at the range. Recoil is a significant factor in how people perform with a rifle when accuracy and consistency is paramount.

^^^ I guess I need to try and experience it to determine whether it is or is not actually a benefit and if so how much if at all. Moderately skeptical but that TBD.

I have nothing against the 6.5 but have absolutely no need to this point. Shooting the .308 is a joy and absolutely no issue for me in terms of recoil. It does everything I could possibly need it to do. So the 6.5 is a solution to a problem I don't have.

I've always kind of wanted a FN-FAL.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
^^^ I guess I need to try and experience it to determine whether it is or is not actually a benefit and if so how much if at all. Moderately skeptical but that TBD.

It took me only one steel stage -- 10 shots -- with a borrowed 6.5CM to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 308. It took me only one steel stage with a buddy's 6mm Dasher to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 6.5CM.

As I noted, 308 rifles hit targets. It's an inherently accurate cartridge, with the loads figured out decades ago. But 6.5mm and 6mm bores hit targets with greater consistency. Less wind drift. Flatter trajectory. Higher BC bullets. Longer distances before transonic bullet velocity decreases accuracy.

Spotting your own shots is often poo-pooed by those who don't truly understand the concept. Lower recoiling rifles make it easier for the shooter to keep crosshairs exactly on POA. By exactly I mean less than 1/2 MOA movement throughout the entire recoil cycle. The rifle doesn't jump or hop. From a vision standpoint, the shooter might as well looking through binos or a spotting scope on a tripod. When a shooter possesses this skill level of marksmanship, he can actually see the trace of his own bullet fly to the target and then impact (or miss) the target. If you can see your own trace, on longer distances you know the wind drift levels during flight, and watch the bullet arc into the target. With steel, you can see the moment the bullet spatters onto the target. Not afterwards, once the steel stops swinging. You're looking at the bare steel and then you see the bullet smash into it.

In ballpark terms for many calibers, each 100 yards of flight takes about .1 second. Even slight movement of the crosshairs off POA from recoil means there's not enough time to get sights back on target to see trace or impact. There's a big difference between stating that "I saw the miss, because there's a puff of dirt" versus "I saw the trace arcing to the right of the target and watched it hit dirt". The former statement is the result of eyes being on target a 1/2 second to 1 second after impact. The later statement is the result of eyes being on target tenths of a second before impact.

Now not everyone wants or needs such level of precision shooting. Not all of those wanting this precision will obtain the necessary skills.

****
A few years ago I got to shoot a couple of Rifles Only precision rifle courses with Nick Irving as a guest instructor. Nick was an Army sniper in the sandbox -- did a couple of tours IIRC. Known as the "Reaper". His duty rifle was a KAC SR25 in 308. He is one of the best marksman I've seen. The real deal, he had over 30 kills.

For the first course I brought both my new 6.5CM and my trusty 308. Nick was just back from duty and this was his first time seeing a 6.5CM up close. His first 100-yard group with my 6.5 measured about .1 inches. He hammered a 6-ish-inch group IIRC at 1000 yards with my 6.5CM. He stated his job would have been easier, and there would have been fewer hadji running around, if his SR25 was a 6.5CM instead of a 308.

****
I still train with my 308. It's a challenge to quickly and accurately engage multiple targets from less-than-stable positions, such as barriers. Spotting my impacts is more challenging, which means my following shots' wind calls can be less precise. Transition times are slower with the 308. After training with the 308, it's an ego boost to use either the 6.5 or 6.

quote:

It took me only one steel stage -- 10 shots -- with a borrowed 6.5CM to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 308. It took me only one steel stage with a buddy's 6mm Dasher to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 6.5CM.

^^ Maybe so but that still only convinces you ~ I would require more proof for me to go full on.
I'm not going to call it a "fact" ... just yet.

A heavy 6mm will get more hits faster than a heavy 6.5, a 6.5 will get/more hits faster than a 308.

Higher velocity high BC bullets will have less wind drift and a flatter trajectory. They will also have less recoil than a heavier projectile in the same weight rifle. These are not opinions, they are facts. If you are trying to get hits on steel at unknown distances under field conditions shooting a 308 would be a handicap. Many rifle matches have a 308 division so that the 308 shooters don’t compete with the GT crowd, and if you are not competing, and only shooting for personal enjoyment why not challenge yourself with a more difficult rifle to get hits with? I shoot 6CM in matches, but shoot 308 for practice, 4+ times the barrel life is nice, but twice the wind hold is the real benefit. After tossing pumpkins at steel, using a slippery little 105 is like easy mode. Also 308 runs better in gas guns than the smaller guys, and if downrange energy is important but magnums are not allowed a 308 is the clear choice.

In summation, it is my humble opinion that you should buy and shoot whatever rifle(s) float your goat.

I enjoy shooting my .308. But I wouldn’t mind having a rifle with good accuracy and less recoil. Can you buy a 6mm rifle or do you have to custom build one? What’s available on the market?

OK, I answered my own question with a little more research. A check on GB shows quite a few options are available in 6mm.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 2Adefender,

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
It took me only one steel stage -- 10 shots -- with a borrowed 6.5CM to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 308. It took me only one steel stage with a buddy's 6mm Dasher to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 6.5CM.

^^ Maybe so but that still only convinces you ~ I would require more proof for me to go full on.
I'm not going to call it a "fact" ... just yet.

I'd consider ANYTHING that 'fritz' posts in the 'Rifle Room' sub-forum to be reliable fact...Just Sayin'!

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

It took me only one steel stage -- 10 shots -- with a borrowed 6.5CM to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 308. It took me only one steel stage with a buddy's 6mm Dasher to understand that I can hit more targets than with my 6.5CM.

Fritz,

Call me crazy, but... just start asking your buddies what they shoot before you buy anything...

Thank me whenever you like.

Yeah, I appreciate and respect everything Fritz says, it's his views that I need to experience myself for two reasons: 1) to raise my knowledge level as experiencing it yourself is more valuable than just the knowledge of others and 2) FUN ... what better way to have fun than doing it yourself?
Not crazy about adding another caliber but I am sure I can get over that.
I love 308 but if it gets better then ...