If I was going to try to imagine a guy getting emotionally invested in arguing for birdshot for home defense, I would picture him with a shortened 1897 with a bead sight. You got a safety orange NRA hat somewhere?

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
here is what I think you are slinging..

Well, I'll tell ya- if that's true, it's my place to sling it, isn't it?

No, I didn't watch your videos. I don't need a video to confirm or deny something I know quite well. Your position on this matter is preposterous, truly.

And for a guy who was "listening, out..." you have a funny way to stop monitoring this thread.

What about rock salt, besides that it burns up the grass?

For that matter, who needs a shotgun?

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
A guy in our department was almost killed by a round fired inside a house that went through the kitchen wall, front door, caught him in the arm pit while he was on the sidewalk...Laughable, yeah I'll bet he is sill laughing...

60

You realize pistol calibers such as 9mm are more prone to over penetration in a house than 5.56, and 9mm is likely the most popular H.D. round? But judging by your posts, of course you don't

Hey, guys, I like the silly posts! Can I play too?

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92FStech, "And based on what I saw, a #6 field load isn't right for anybody."

I agree , if your home invader is using 2 1-gallon milk jugs for a tactical vest. Or maybe is a matronly type in a triple-HHH blue denim brassiere.

In either case, if all you've got is your rabbit gun, improvise, adapt, overcome:

Shoot lower. Seriously. Really. No kidding.

#9 shot is .08 inches. F shot is .22 inches.

Both used as "birdshot".

Also shot isn't just lead and copperplated lead anymore. Heavyshot, Tungston and Bismoth are harder and heavier than lead.

I once killed a 25 pound Tom Turkey at 74 yards with #5 Heavyshot. Also killed a coyote at 25 yards with the same load.

I do prefer #4 buck .24 inches 25ish pellets in my hd 870 police magnum.

My issue with this thread is not all ‘birdshot’ is equal.

Test out ‘T’ hevishot or HD then report back.

After that we can talk about BB , 2 and the rest.

I was coyote hunting with a buddy. It was 12 noon so we setup for crows. That included hi power #6 shot. Low & behold a coyote showed up. He was shot in the face with the #6 shot, DRT.

Just saying, one often doesn’t need the textbook solution.

quote:

Heavyshot [sic], Tungston [sic] and Bismoth [sic] are harder and heavier than lead.

quote:

Test out ‘T’ hevishot or HD then report back.

Ain't happening. This makes neither tactical nor economic sense. Some of these loads are over $100 a box. To fill my 8+1-round Mossberg would take two of them.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I was coyote hunting with a buddy. It was 12 noon so we setup for crows. That included hi power #6 shot. Low & behold a coyote showed up. He was shot in the face with the #6 shot, DRT.

Just saying, one often doesn’t need the textbook solution.

A happenstance encounter with a coyote while bird hunting has no bearing on whether your shotgun should be loaded with bird shot for self defense.

One offs will always happen, that doesn’t change any truth about birdshot being inferior for self defense.

Back when I was very young and birdshot and a pump was all that I had at hand yes I used it for home defense. But wouldn’t think of it today. The data from multiple sources is irrefutable that small size birdshot ( the typical 6-71/2-8 stuff used in typical bargain/ bulk Walmart ammo ) has inadequate penetration even at close range to reliably stop a threat.
The FBI protocols used for pistol ammo testing for minimum penetration depth do reliably transfer over to testing of any gun ammo combination- I have personally witness birdshot wounds produced at close ( sub 10 feet ) range on human targets. The person wasn’t at all happy, but continued to perform with little impairment ( I have medically cared for a few cops hit with birdshot at close range, and they all said ouch then went on to address the shooter in various ways to a positive conclusion)
Sort of like a 25 automatic much better than nothing but still not optimal by any measurable standard

Just one more coyote hunting story. There we were thick cover, the coyote showed at 15-20 yards or so. My partner and I shot at nearly the same time, sounded like one shot. Of course the coyote didn’t take any more steps.

Later while skinning my partner noted that the ‘T’ shot penetrated a good amount further than the standard #4 buck. I guess we can agree that a coyote isn’t a person.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
Back when I was very young and birdshot and a pump was all that I had at hand yes I used it for home defense. But wouldn’t think of it today. The data from multiple sources is irrefutable that small size birdshot ( the typical 6-71/2-8 stuff used in typical bargain/ bulk Walmart ammo ) has inadequate penetration even at close range to reliably stop a threat.

That is a very common tenet in discussions against birdshot home defense, ie, limiting the birdshot to #6 or smaller, and cheap-ass Walmart promotional shells.

quote:

The FBI protocols used for pistol ammo testing for minimum penetration depth do reliably transfer over to testing of any gun ammo combination-

That's quite a leap.

quote:

I have personally witness birdshot wounds produced at close ( sub 10 feet ) range on human targets. The person wasn’t at all happy, but continued to perform with little impairment ( I have medically cared for a few cops hit with birdshot at close range, and they all said ouch then went on to address the shooter in various ways to a positive conclusion)

What were the shotshell loads, gauges, barrel chokes, points of impact on the body, persons' clothing at points of impact, and physical damages of the sub-10 foot incidents?

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
Just one more coyote hunting story. There we were thick cover, the coyote showed at 15-20 yards or so. My partner and I shot at nearly the same time, sounded like one shot. Of course the coyote didn’t take any more steps.

Later while skinning my partner noted that the ‘T’ shot penetrated a good amount further than the standard #4 buck. I guess we can agree that a coyote isn’t a person.

Is the discussion not birdshot might be better than buckshot in a home defense scenario because it maybe less likely to over penetrate or go through other barriers and injury innocents? What does a $17 per round Tungsten shotshell offer in this scenario that a $1 per round 00 Buck or $2 per round #4 Buck does not?

https://deleonrxgunsandammo.co...z-t-shot-10-bx-10-cs


$51.47/10 = $5.15/shell

The problem with trying to discuss this is that here are so many different loads out there that qualify as "birdshot", and even all "buckshot" isn't created equal. And then you have different barrel lengths, chokes, and even just variances in individual barrels. Heck, letting too much plastic residue build up in your bore can create a measurable difference in performance...enough that it could potentially change the outcome in a real-world situation.

I've seen 00 buckshot loads that wouldn't pattern tight enough to keep all the pellets on a man-sized silhouette at 7 yards, and I refused to qualify him with that ammo. Federal Flight-Control 00 hit almost like a slug at that range out of the same gun. Obviously there's also a big difference in a #8 Winchester target load from a Wal-Mart bulk pack compared to a $75 5-count box of tungsten Turkey loads.

I think when most people hear "birdshot", the first thing that comes to mind is that Walmart bulk pack stuff. Many shooters probably don't even know that the other stuff exists. Are there loads designed for birds that will work on people? Probably. But it's going to take some significant testing and knowledge to identify what those are and the scenario constraints where they can be effective...well beyond the experience and knowledge of your average gun owner. They're also very expensive, and not likely to be in stock at your local wally-World.

If you start telling people to go load their defensive shotgun with birdshot because it's just as effective as buck at stopping people but doesn't go through walls, you're going to get a lot of Walmart bulk-pack 2 3/4 #8s or #7s, and it's going to be very much the wrong tool for the job.

There is also a plethora of single projectile launchers out there with varying grips, sights, barrel lengths, controls, etc., etc.

And scads of ammo choices from CB, .22RF, 25 ACP right through the popular 9MM up to .44 Magnum and beyond. And projectile types from lead, copper, totally frangible, hollow points, high tech expandables, with bullet weights from 29Gr up to and beyond 250GR.

For home defense, we wouldn't anymore tell anyone to load their dirty, un maintained defensive shotguns with WallyWorld #8's, than we would tell cousin to load their .22LR Bond Arms Derringer or grandon's Chipmonk single shot rifle with the cheapest Remington Thunderbolt shells they found in Uncle Ernie's bib overalls pocket that came through the laundry.

Or $36.50/box Lapua X-act match ammunition.

Back in the day, Hevi-shot didn’t cost $17 a round. I bought a bunch at discount, plenty on my shelf.