...that I don't recall seeing mentioned before. While shooting 12-ga. target/game loads* in a Mossberg and a Benelli, both with cylinder bore barrels with no choke, at a 23x35-inch silhouette at ~20 feet, there were a considerable number of pecker holes outside of the main grouping, well outside of the head part, and even a few outside the torso part. For defense use I load with #1 buckshot, 9 pellets @ 1200 fps (Fiocchi Defense Dynamics for decent performance with less recoil and cost). At that distance most of them are in one large hole, with the outliers making about a 4-inch total grouping. How much energy the birdshot retains downrange I can't say, but this tells me those pellets will go on to hit something that maybe you didn't want to hit.

*The target/game loads with birdshot are for cheap practice only. They carry a similar shot weight payload at a similar velocity for similar recoil, hit the same point of aim and cost a ten-spot for a box of 25.

Federal Flight Control FTW



And in a 14” cylinder barrel…

Well, I see ‘birdshot’ mentioned at times, but there are vast variations with pellets smaller than #4 buckshot or similar. I used to do a fair amount of coyote hunting, short range, shotguns. The loads varied from #4 buck, T , BB, #2 in hevi-shot, or Remington HD.

I recently did some varmint control with magnum #2 & #4 lead shot. Even those loads are formidable, but more so is Hevi-shot or REM HD with heavier than lead pellets.

Just saying, not all ‘birdshot’ is anything near equal.

Remington 870.
Federal 3.5 Magnum 00 shot.
I am good out to 40 yards.

I live alone, and my cat knows "under the bed" is where he needs to be if the quiet night becomes un-quiet.

I can't even spell "collateral damage".

quote:

considerable number of pecker holes

I have nothing to add except for childish giggles over an obvious autocorrupt.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
Federal Flight Control FTW

My 18” Mossberg puts Flite-control into about the same size group at 15 yds.
I backed up to 30 yds and the whole group I could cover with my hand spread out. Every pellet would be in a (soon disappearing) head shot.

My gas gun needs some more testing (Rem 11-87) but early tests show only a *very slight* increase in pattern size. It has a slug barrel with sights and is on the money.

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
If you are in a house, large bird shot would be my choice.. Look around your house and figure your longest shot, it will be one large hole at most ranges and if any pellets miss the target or go through they are less likely to go through a couple walls and inflict fatal damage to one of your family..or neighbors...buckshot can and will...

60

Know your pattern (specifically your load in your gun) and stay within its constraints. Birdshot is for birds. It produces inadequate penetration on people (and just about anything else). If a load is safe for drywall, I don't want to count on it for stopping a bad guy. If you've got a big enough house where you can't keep your buckshot pattern on a man-size silhouette (safely 25-30 yards with modern flight-control loads) then you're probably better-served with a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Birdshot is for birds. It produces inadequate penetration on people (and just about anything else). If a load is safe for drywall, I don't want to count on it for stopping a bad guy.

How many decades does this statement need to be made before it finally sinks in?

Wow. Try some research on the web, for those who have tested birdshot against various materials & flesh. Old tales live on, regardless of what testing shows.
Birdshot is for birds.

I've personally seen birdshot bounce off the skin of a car door inside of 10 yards with zero penetration. I know that's not tissue, and I certainly wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of it, but that's not confidence inspiring.

For the small shot at home afficianado, the Winchester Defender lineup includes No. 2s along with the buckshot and slugs.

The Federal Flite Control is a wonder of tight patterning. At Standard Internet Ranges, it puts all the energy on the enemy with low risk of stray buckshot. Which also means you have to "aim small" same as with a rifle.
In my mind that puts it in competition with a carbine, say an AR with 20-30 rounds in the gun and less recoil.

I've seen a recent thread on whether a revolver is enough sidearm or if you need a high capacity automatic. Same arguments apply here.

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
If you are in a house, large bird shot would be my choice.. Look around your house and figure your longest shot, it will be one large hole at most ranges and if any pellets miss the target or go through they are less likely to go through a couple walls and inflict fatal damage to one of your family..or neighbors...buckshot can and will...

60

Umm..no.

I have shot plenty of birdshot ranging from #6 to #8 at 7 yards and it does not make "one large hole". The wad will make a 1-2" hole, but the pattern of the above birdshot out of an 18.5" barrel will scatter all over a 10"X14" target. Even shooting something like #4 Buckshot will not result in "one large hole".

As mentioned above, Flite Control 00 Buck will make a hole resembling a 1-2" bullet as on this 8"X11" paper

Real world example of shotgun effectiveness with OOB:
A very popular shotgun (and the most confiscated) on my beat was the H&R "Topper" in 12GA, usually with the barrel hacksawed down to just in front of the forearm. Not exactly state of the tactical art! However, after a thumping, a wife snatched up hubbys Topper and chased him out onto the front lawn where she let fly! She pulled her shot and the load hit hubby in the right arm just above the elbow. When I got there, the arm was hanging by a strip of skin, so nearly a total amputation. Load was the standard Remington 9 pellet OOB.
When it comes to shotguns for defense: 12GA with barrel length of your choice, the biggest tritium bead you can mount or red dot/rifle sights and Federal Flite Control OOB.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

considerable number of pecker holes

I have nothing to add except for childish giggles over an obvious autocorrupt.

Without having read the thread thoroughly:

Of course a load of birdshot out of a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun will disrupt tissue and may take the recipient out of the fight, but a determined attacker may not be dissuaded.

Immediate incapacitation of a determined attacker requires penetration to vital organs. Concerns of overpenetration are secondary, and if you are shooting inside of a dwelling and people may be on the other side of a wall, a shotgun firing multiple projectiles with each pull of the trigger may not be the best choice.

A properly loaded 12 gauge shotgun, however, produces devastating damage at close range on unarmored targets.

At a minimum, a 2.75" load of 4 buck is called for. Inside of a dwelling, 1 buck may be optimal. Nine pellets of 00 buck, even at reduced velocities, will likely be a decisive stopper.

If you think you can place that load of birdshot in someone's face at a distance of five or six feet, sure, you're all set, but when push comes to shove in a dynamic encounter, you'd better have buckshot in your gun.

quote:

Without having read the thread thoroughly:

Of course a load of birdshot out of a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun will disrupt tissue and may take the recipient out of the fight, but a determined attacker may not be dissuaded.

Immediate incapacitation of a determined attacker requires penetration to vital organs. Concerns of overpenetration are secondary, and if you are shooting inside of a dwelling and people may be on the other side of a wall, a shotgun firing multiple projectiles with each pull of the trigger may not be the best choice.

A properly loaded 12 gauge shotgun, however, produces devastating damage at close range on unarmored targets.

At a minimum, a 2.75" load of 4 buck is called for. Inside of a dwelling, 1 buck may be optimal. Nine pellets of 00 buck, even at reduced velocities, will likely be a decisive stopper.

If you think you can place that load of birdshot in someone's face at a distance of five or six feet, sure, you're all set, but when push comes to shove in a dynamic encounter, you'd better have buckshot in your gun.

Funny, the police don't agree that collateral damage is secondary, that is one of the reasons they use reduce power tactical loads with only 9 pellets. They don't want to kill the neighbors watching TV in the next apartment.. Are your kids considered secondary? I really can't believe this...We have guys saying bird shot won't penetrate cars-well when I start parking my Chevy in the living room I'll get a different gun.. And another guy has a POS shot gun that won't pattern birdshot so he condemns the birdshot not the gun...amazing.. If your 30-06 doesn't group a certain bullet well I guess then all 30-06's are junk..

Did anyone look at the video I posted...Birdshot went through 6" of bone and meat and then some, IDK about you guys but 6+ inches is enough to reach my vitals.

I did some information searching and calculations about kinetic energy-(I have been hand loading shotguns shells for years, including buckshot and slugs);
9- 00 pellets weigh 1 1/8oz and have approx 1900 foot lbs. of kinetic energy at the Muzzle in a tactical loading.

1 1/8oz of birdshot's muzzle energy is 1700 to 2400 ft lbs depending on the loading, so lets stay in the middle at 1900.

At 20 feet-( the average distance of home shootings) the buckshot load retains 1600ft lbs of energy, the birdshot is 1325 so you can see the birdshot loses energy faster, we all know that. But at 20 feet it has plenty to put a perp down and still not have over-penetration. There are variables such as shot size, larger shot like #2's or 4's retain energy a little better and at slightly longer ranges.

I'm not arguing the effectiveness of buckshot, I've used it for many years and have butchered many hundreds of deer that were shot with it...I know exactly what it can do., Same with flight control wads, been using them for years, they can turn a crappy shotgun into an excellent buck shot gun. I also know what birdshot can do, it has been used to put down crippled deer and at close range, it's devastating.

I was admonished above for believing in old tales and that I should do some internet research. Actually, many of the posters here should do the same and look into the facts. Stop reading magazines, watching movies, beating your chest and racking buckshot into your gun just because it kills...because it will also keep on killing after it goes through your perp. Take a walk through your house and imagine different scenarios where you would be shooting and think about where the shot would go after it hits your target, or even worse if you miss..and it's not just in your house..

Good luck to you all and please let me know if you happen to move next to me...

60

And to think that I almost didn’t open SigForum this morning.

1860ARMY, you're fucking with the wrong guy.

You think you're right. Fine. I really don't care. You're compelled to be right. I care even less about that.

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
They don't want to kill the neighbors watching TV in the next apartment.. Are your kids considered secondary?

Reading your posts, I think this might better serve you.