quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I’m not married to any idea yet but I do mildly scoff at old sayings being passed around as solid fact.

Birdshot is for birds. It may be an old saying, but there's a reason for it.

Birdshot is small pellets. Pellets not meant to penetrate through the bird's feathers and skin. Birds are killed by kinetic energy with a mass of birdshot pellets, not by vital organ penetration. Scoff all you want, but that means you don't know what bird hunting is all about.

Sure but so is “I won’t carry anything that doesn’t start with a 4”. It is a trope and nothing more. Passing it off as some solid science in the short ranged very specific scenario we are talking about is kind of inaccurate/misleading.

Besides which when was the last time you shot a bird at 10 feet? I’m guessing never because it would be a pile of feathers and mush. Yes, at bird hunting range birdshot is for birds. At 10 feet it seems to be more amenable to other victims.

150 #4 or #5 birdshot at 15 feet is a killer I suspect in nearly every case. What I need is that guy in army whatever’s video to dress up some more lunch meat and bbq to test out my theory though. lol.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I’m not married to any idea yet but I do mildly scoff at old sayings being passed around as solid fact.

Y'know, you keep saying that, and it has nothing to do with the thing that every competent shotgunner knows. I've never even heard that trite expression, but you keep saying that all those who are telling you to not make a deadly mistake in home defense are doing nothing but parroting a meaningless expression, without giving it any real thought. Just get off of it. If you don't want to listen to common sense and experience, that's your business. Oh, but I know- you're just pondering this non-issue, thinking out loud, trying to discern the facts, et cetera and so forth.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
It is a trope and nothing more. Passing it off as some solid science in the short ranged very specific scenario we are talking about is kind of inaccurate/misleading.

Then by all means, get out there and do some testing. Provide the world with scientific, non-biased data. Test different shot sizes -- #7-9 shot, #4-6 shot, small buck, large buck. Lead, steel, tungsten, or whatever metal is used in the pellets. Short through long barrels. Cylinder through full choke. Various distances. Through various materials and clothing. Test for penetration. Test for kinetic energy delivered.

And then you can tell us...

quote:

then you definitely need the most technologically advanced teeny little birdshot pellets.

-- per the Big Guy with the picture of a majestic bald eagle

And then maybe -- just maybe -- you can state odds of efficacy for a given firearm configuration, load type, distance to target, clothing type & layers used by the perp, size of the perp, how motivated/high is the perp.

Or maybe one just stacks the odds in their own favor. And leaves birdshot for birds.

Like all things shotgun, it depends on your gun.

I've told the story before about the Moss 500 I keep around the house, I kept some Duplex turkey loads with it. A hot/heavy load of #2's & #6's, going with the "fist of lead" theory.

I don't recall the actual timeline, but I'd probably be embarrassed by how long I kept that load with the gun without actually trying it. Anticipating a slow work day at the range one day, I took it with me. Set up a board and man sized target on the 7 yard pistol range. Let one fly dead center and was horrified to see a spread that covered the whole target. There was no "fist of lead", just a huge sparse pattern that while painful, wouldn't have incapacitated anyone. Maybe blinded them if I was lucky. (it was back to 00 buck in that gun after that)

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Besides which when was the last time you shot a bird at 10 feet? I’m guessing never because it would be a pile of feathers and mush. Yes, at bird hunting range birdshot is for birds. At 10 feet it seems to be more amenable to other victims.

And I'm amused that people would even think a shotgun for HD at 10 feet range is a smart idea. If one lives in such a small apartment or small house that only affords such short distances to take cover and engage an intruder with a long gun or shotgun, IMO they are using the wrong tool. My shotgun strategy in my house is for a static position, with distance from an assailant; in my likely scenario, 30-32' from just beyond my bedroom door behind cover to the front entry way. No way am I tangling with an intruder(s) at real close range unless I have a handgun for mobility, quick movement, and less chance of having my weapon taken away at close engagement ( Tueller Drill)

At 10 feet, I'd much rather use a S&W 29-2 revolver loaded with .44 magnum Hydra-Shok than a shotgun with birdshot. Or realistically, my HD handguns I have on hand.

If it was all you had, sure.

If it’s not all you have, then no.

I had questions Mike. That’s it. I have led a very successful professional career by asking questions and making up my own mind. I was trying to do that here. Not sorry that it ruffled feathers. That’s not my problem. You have bad blood with me, I probably earned it in all fairness, but I haven’t crossed any of your lines in quite awhile. No rudeness, no meanness, nothing. I had no ulterior motive other than hopefully being pointed to more testing on the subject without wading through pages of search results. That’s it. If I’m not welcome just say the word. It’s getting exhausting trying to toe a line that I don’t even know where it is half the time.

If you weren't welcome here, you would damn well know it, and I find it impossible to believe that you don't know this.

You're the author of your own issues. and all this 'not sorry, not my problem' stuff is indicative of the problem. When you get hold of something, you can't let it go. You just have to show that you're right, by obstinately sticking to whatever trajectory you're on.

Playing the victim who is being hounded by the big bad mean admin for no reason at all is not going to make things better. I react to everyone here by taking the approach that there are certain things I don't like and won't tolerate. Longtime members cultivate a track record. Am I supposed to ignore that?

You possess resilience and I know you're sincere when you say you like it here and want to be here, but this does not mitigate my frustration with the approach you take at times to some topics.

Don't try to put this on me for reacting honestly to some of the things you say, with this thread being a good example.

Just use your head. That's all you have to do.

Not true Mike. I haven’t written anything in this thread that I wouldn’t read out loud to my mother. You have been jumping my case over nothing. You have been rude in your posts to me. It’s your house your rules but I haven’t been rude to anybody. I’m not “putting anything” on you. I’m straight out saying you seem to be holding a beef with me that doesn’t exist on my end. Saying I have issue with you is complete nonsense and untrue. Like I said before, normally I completely avoid threads you are in because I seem to annoy you regardless of my actual postings so I use an old aviation adage, “see and avoid”.

I will continue to not be rude or say mean things because honestly I am old enough to know I should have never done that anyway. I shouldn’t have had to be told that by you ever, that’s on me. I am done however saying sorry though for having opinions or for disagreeing with the host. We discuss politely, we don’t, or you tell me I’m not welcome. I will stick to the former but the other two are up to you boss.

If somebody ever disagrees with you Mike only 2 things ever happen. We shut up and keep it to ourselves or we don’t and get blasted. If you can’t see that then that’s on you. Only one of us has a bully pulpit here and it ain’t me.

Enough

quote:

I’m not “putting anything” on you.

Goddamn, man. You need look no further than this last post of yours to see that that's bullshit.

You just don't know when to quit, but oh, yes, that's on me, too.

And who the fuck are you to be calling me by my name in the open forum? Do I do that to you here? To others? Cut it out.

I call my surgeon by his first name. He saved my life. You own an internet forum. Since when is that offensive?

Like I said, 2 rules. One for you and one for the rest of us. No long term members ever disagree with you. Ever. There are 2 plausible explanations. Everything you commit to paper is golden. Or we all know the rules. I know which one I think is true. No one will back me up on this because they want to stay in good standing. Back when you had emails listed on the members page you would have loved to see actual responses to threads via email. I don’t know what you think you read on this thread that was inflammatory but any reasonable read is you being nasty to me not the other way around.

Your rules your house. You don’t need to be told it’s your house I know. You really don’t ever see your part in any personality issues on your forum do you? You chased off a lot of trolls in my 20+ years here but you’ve chased off lots of good people too because they didn’t step back when told.

You have reprimanded me in the past and I have followed your regs. Now I’m supposed to what, stop following my trajectory whatever that means. If I disagree and rebut something I’m in the wrong now? That is some hokey stuff right there.

***edited***

Apologies to all for the extreme display of temper

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

I use the KISS Principle, you shoot a 9 pellet 00 buck, then a 1oz. slug.

Barrel length, choke, distance, shot size and powder charge. Lots of things that affect what a shotgun will do to living tissue that people who don’t have enough experience killing things with shotguns just can’t appreciate the gravity of. At ten feet, basically anything out of a shotgun is a solid mass. Past that? Things start to change rapidly, again, depending on a lot of variables. What doesn’t change is that .36 caliber pellets out of a shotgun are going to retain more energy at further ranges. I killed a fox with buckshot at about the distance Dick Cheney shot a friend in the face with birdshot.

In watching a bunch of Beretta 1301 videos recently, I ran across this one. Ernest Langdon does a pretty good job demonstrating what I’m talking about, here.

I had a busy weekend and haven't had much time to check in here. I'm sorry this thread escalated the way it did.

I've got a couple of shotguns, a few different chokes, some milk jugs, some drywall, and a bunch of random 12ga shot shells lying around. I think I'd enjoy testing some of this stuff if I get the time later this week or next. I've shot plenty of stuff with buck, bird, and slugs in the past...enough that I think I have a pretty good idea of what it will do...but never with the goal of answering this specific question in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I had no ulterior motive other than hopefully being pointed to more testing on the subject without wading through pages of search results.

Your persistent chase of a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist is futile, it is like trying to figure out how to dig a large hole in the ground with a spoon, disregarding the fact that shovels and backhoes are designed for the task. I cannot begin to understand the deliberate choice of birdshot for HD, just a horrible choice when much better choices designed for the job exist. I have more understanding for someone who chooses .22LR for home defense to drastically reduce felt recoil due to strength issues in hands and upper body, gaining a better chance of hitting target. And it is a caliber the vast majority of gun enthusiasts will discount as a viable H.D. caliber. Birdshot gains nothing, unless it is not a choice, but the one only option available.

quote:

Originally posted by ss9961:
Ammo selection doesn’t matter when it comes to home defense with a pump shotgun.

Simply rack the slide forcefully and the
chack-chack sound will frighten off any and all villains.

Where's ASG with his Chack Chack speech when we need him?! Empty jar of Vaseline and dong a flapping and all.

I wouldn't use birdshot for defense, mainly because that wasn't what it was designed for. It was designed to shoot birds, not people. 00 buck wasn't originally for that, either, but it was since been realized to be an effective load for SD, so now there are dedicated commercial loads of 00 buck made for this purpose. I'm not aware of any bird shot loads made for this.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
It was designed to shoot birds, not people.

Well, and beyond all that, if we want to get hung up on Fuddlorisms and all that, the other end of it works as well: "If birdshot was great for killing people, we would have heard all about it by now, many times over." We haven't because it isn't. The logic works both ways for me. It doesn't pass the test in either direction.