quote:

Originally posted by walker77:
Im leaning towards 855 for penetration. I want to make sure it will work well on automotive glass and doors.

As I’ve discussed above, in my admittedly limited experiments neither M193 nor M855 is particularly good through windshield glass and automotive sheet steel. Of the two, however, the M193 is generally better. M855 was designed to be better against Soviet helmets at long ranges, not to defeat automotive barriers at close distances.

Everyone anticipates different sorts of self-defense situations that they might find themselves in. I believe that a few hundred rounds of good ammunition with bonded bullets would satisfy any foreseeable situations that would involve defending myself against attackers in automobiles.

Another vote for Fusion MSR 62gr. Pick it up when it's on sale and you've got a great round at a price other premium ammo can't match. I'd love some more BH 50gr TSX or Hornady TAP, but for the price of some of them you could just hire armed security to patrol your residence. The Fusion also has the advantage of being pretty widely available at most retail stores (Academy, Bass Pro, etc). You'll pay full price ($18-$20) a box, but at least you can buy it locally if necessary. To me that's a great advantage over more exotic stuff like the BH 50gr TSX that pretty much has to be ordered over the internet.

I'm sorry guys but I guess I am old school. I would not want to get hit with anything from a 223. 55 grain up.............it will all kill you. Why pay more for punching paper? Just get the 55 grain and call it good. Unless of course you want to be top dog on the block. Just my .02.

quote:

Originally posted by Fishjager:
I'm sorry guys but I guess I am old school. I would not want to get hit with anything from a 223. 55 grain up.............it will all kill you. Why pay more for punching paper? Just get the 55 grain and call it good. Unless of course you want to be top dog on the block. Just my .02.

A lot of this ammo makes use of new bullet technology and was purpose-designed for scenarios that differ from the those M193 was created for. You've got bonded ammo that excels at punching through autoglass, 75gr and 77gr rounds that fragment at longer ranges, etc. We're currently lucky enough to have the option of being able to choose the appropriate round for our needs.

quote:

Originally posted by walker77:
What would you guys still use for stock piling? Im leaning towards 855 for penetration. I want to make sure it will work well on automotive glass and doors. But I like the fragmentation of the 193. And 193 is cheaper.

I would advise against M855 in a 1:9 barrel. It's long and shoots more like a 69 or 77 grain bullet (i.e. Needs 1:8 or 1:7 barrel) than a 62 grain bullet. I bought a shit ton of M855 prior to the '12 election and Sandy Hook, and made the mistake of only bringing that round to the range to sight in a new scope on a 1:9 barreled AR. Never ending dozen and two dozen click adjustments before I threw in the towel. Brought out some different 60 gr ammo the next weekend, was able to sight in the new scope, and it shot 1.5 MOA groups.

Anyone who pays attention to such things based on accounts or videos knows that any gun with any ammunition will “do the job” as a defensive weapon most of the time. In a large percentage of incidents, all that’s necessary is to show a BG a gun even if it’s not fired.

If old .22 and .32 handguns work, will a modern rifle that’s capable of firing 30 or more rounds before reloading accomplish the purpose most of the time? Of course. As long at it’s a load that the weapon will function with properly, it doesn’t matter if the bullet was designed for shooting prairie dogs or moose, point the gun, pull the trigger, and few miscreants will stand up to it.

The problem, however, is that there are exceptions. There are some aggressive predators who won’t be deterred by the threat of violence or by receiving a minor owie. They must be stopped by physical means, and that means that the bullets must be capable of causing sufficient damage to accomplish that goal. Another factor is the fact that sometimes engaging a BG isn’t like shooting a sheet of paper that doesn’t move while we fire multiple shots at it. If a shot or more miss, no biggie; there’s always more to shoot. And because paper doesn’t shoot back, there’s no danger that we’ll be able to get off only a shot or two because of an injury or because the weapon malfunctions.

All that means that if I’m able to score a hit in a defensive situation, I will want it to be as effective as possible (given the limitations of the gun and cartridge, of course). If the bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough or is deflected or rendered ineffective by a barrier, I may not get another chance. In short, if I’m depending on a gun and ammunition to save my life or the life of someone I care about, I hope I won’t have to settle for “good enough.”

quote:

Originally posted by Fishjager:

I'm sorry guys but I guess I am old school. I would not want to get hit with anything from a 223. 55 grain up.............it will all kill you. Why pay more for punching paper?

A .22 rimfire will kill you, so by your logic, that’s all anyone needs. Also, the subject of this thread is “personal defense” not “punching paper.” The objective in self-defense shooting is not to kill; the objective is immediate physiological incapacitation.


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Lot of different ideas here in this thread.
My SBR is for house defense.
I load my 55 lead tipped Sierra hunting rounds in for
a certain class of people that crash doors in
my neighbor hood.
I want to stop the threat and not shoot the neighborhood up .
I am not going out and shooting at autos for the ones that escape the initial break in

I have magazines loaded with two significantly different types of ammunition. One load is good against barriers, and one is, I believe, somewhat better as a dedicated antipersonnel round. There’s no reason why we should worry about shooting through windshields if that’s not something we would ever do. If, however, one believes that that might be necessary, then he should research the issue and not make ignorant assumptions about what will accomplish that goal.

Yes, my intention is to keep my Lancer smoke magazines loaded with the Fusion MSR, and keep M193 in my black Lancers.

I've obtained 120 rounds of the MSR and will first test it in the Colt 6920 I keep close at hand. Give the ubiquity of the 16" AR with the carbine-length gas system, I imagine this round is tailor made for this rifle. Federal probably used a 6920 in their testing.

Fusion is a fantastic round. Some worry about lack of penetration due to some internet testing, but I have seen first hand the devastation it causes in deer.

There is no doubt the wound channel and penetration would be sufficient.

I'm going to try the tactical bonded 62 gr next hunting season. I'm sure it will work also.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
I'm going to try the tactical bonded 62 gr next hunting season. I'm sure it will work also.

Yes, it should work, even if the deer is attempting to flee in an automobile.

quote:

Yes, my intention is to keep my Lancer smoke magazines loaded with the Fusion MSR, and keep M193 in my black Lancers.

Your choices aside, I have also found this to be the penultimate use for multi-colored mags. To differentiate ammo types.

I use ranger plates in much the same manner. No, I'm not some well-trained mag-swapping gunslinger that needs a mag plate to pull mine free from a tactical pouch - but I do know, even in the dark, which mags are .300 and which are 5.56

Still very much enjoying this thread! Keep it up.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:

Fusion is a fantastic round. Some worry about lack of penetration due to some internet testing, but I have seen first hand the devastation it causes in deer.

There is no doubt the wound channel and penetration would be sufficient.

I'm going to try the tactical bonded 62 gr next hunting season. I'm sure it will work also.

The 62 grain Fusion/Gold Dot have the same terminal ballistic properties as the 64 grain gold Dot.



Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot

Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.











Comparisons.





…..

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:


Your choices aside, I have also found this to be the penultimate use for multi-colored mags. To differentiate ammo types.

...

quote:

Originally posted by PapaSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by bionic218:
Your choices aside, I have also found this to be the penultimate use for multi-colored mags. To differentiate ammo types.

I have always felt the Montblanc is the ultimate pen. How Lancer mags fit into the equation is likely my next to last question.

Yeah, I fucked that up.

How 'bout "Zenith" ? Duz 'at fit better? Er maybe ne plus ultra?

We are gun guys so we love to split hairs on this kind of stuff which is great.

I have done that also regarding this topic and always come back to M193.

Excellent effect, proven, cheap to shoot / train with, buy in bulk for storage, reliable, etc etc.

But 'Merica says we have choices! Which is a good thing.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sig209,

Well, like more than a few members here, I keep a substantial supply of M193 on hand; roughly 1.5 metric shit-tons, commonly referred to as an ass-load.

Without any doubt, though, there are many choices that would be potentially more effective than M193 as a close-range antipersonnel round.

I will continue to rely on M193, but heavier slugs of different composition/construction will, in my opinion, do a better job in this role.

I really can't add much to this conversation, but I'll add the little I can.

My department uses two different rounds for our duty rifles.

The standard patrol rifles carried by a typical deputy is loaded with Federal 55 grain Nosler tipped .223. It's "done the job" quite admirably several times.

The DMR guys with their fancy Larue's use the Hornady 5.56 75gr BTHP TAP. I don't know that it has had the opportunity to be tested "in real life" at our department yet.

Of further note, I recently did some very rudimentary testing of both rounds. I was able to hit my target set up behind various barriers with no issues, including a door from a patrol car, the side window glass, and the windshield. How the projectiles held up through the barriers I can't really say, but I can say I had no trouble putting holes in the targets.