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What do you use for your pistol standards? Three single target standards/drills I've been shooting for a few years.

A long time instructor, competitor...at my local range who I've shot with quite a bit suggested the Gunsite standards for a balance of accuracy and speed. He had the two Gunsite standards memorized, I wrote them down. The times are from a open holster.

Gunsite 250

3yds 1 shot CNS 1.5 sec
7yds 2 shots COM 1.5 sec
10yds 2 shots COM 2.0 sec
15yds 2 shots COM drop to kneeling 3.5 sec
25yds 2shots COM drop to prone 7 sec

Prone? I asked. He dropped down prone and shot at 100yds with his Glock 17. OK, I get it. He helped me with technique. Shot the above countless times.

Gunsite Cup

3yds 1 shot CNS 1.0 sec X5
7yds 1 shot CNS 1.5 sec X5
10yds 2 shots COM 2.0 sec X5
15yds 2 shots COM reload, 2 shots COM 6 sec X3
25yds 2 shots COM 4.0 sec X4

The above is bad ass! First three are the tough ones for me. Getting there, worked on them yesterday.

Gabe White standards. http://www.gabewhitetraining.c...hnical-skills-tests/
I like how went about picking the times for these standards. Times are also from open holster. Times are the Turbo Pin and Light Pin. Turbo Pin also badass! What I like about his standards is not only a balance of speed and accuracy. Multiple shots test grip, recoil control, sight tracking, trigger control.... There's usually a difference for me when shooting multiple shots vs a single with my draw time, working on that as well.

Bill Drill
2.0, 2.5 sec

2-CM 1-CNS
1.7, 2.25 sec

2-CNS
2.0, 2.5 sec

4-COM 2-CNS
2.6, 3.5 sec

Also done these countless times. Judging myself on what I do cold.


From timing myself open holster vs conceal AIWB adding .25-.3 seconds from concealed is right for me.
 
Posts: 3197 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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I think vague standards like “COM” ot “CNS” really don’t show much aside from you can draw fast.

I like specific target areas such as “A” Zone (roughly 6x11), reduced A zone (6x6), 3x5 cards, playing cards, and B-8 bullseye.

I’ll often shoot Bill Drills for par. Then add up the score of the hits as a secondary metric of improvement. Draw fire 1 with a par, shoot it five times, then add up the score as a metric.

I like the Vickers 10-10-10 ( better known as the Test). I also like the F.A.S.T drill.

Just about any drill can be shot with a tighter standard with a little bit of creativity.




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36096 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What par times are you guys looking at from a duty rig with retention? Non-retention open holster times are pretty much meaningless to me, as I never carry like that (always concealed or in a duty rig)...but it seems like a lot of the published drills are set up with those in mind. I've been working on drawing from my duty holster lately, both dry (with a laser cartridge to record "hits") and live fire. It's a Safariland 6360 with ALS/SLS. My goal is to keep all shots in the 10 ring of a B27 at 3 yards. I'm not sure if I'm just slow or what, but even when I feel like I'm doing everything right, I can't get it much under 1.5 seconds...even indoors, dry-fire, in ideal conditions, without having to contend with gloves/coat/snow/etc getting in the way.

It could be my technique or reaction times are just that bad, but the idea of a sub-1-second draw and fire on target seems absolutely superhuman to me at this point, at least from this rig.
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I think vague standards like “COM” ot “CNS” really don’t show much aside from you can draw fast.

I like specific target areas such as “A” Zone (roughly 6x11), reduced A zone (6x6), 3x5 cards, playing cards, and B-8 bullseye.

I’ll often shoot Bill Drills for par. Then add up the score of the hits as a secondary metric of improvement. Draw fire 1 with a par, shoot it five times, then add up the score as a metric.

I like the Vickers 10-10-10 ( better known as the Test). I also like the F.A.S.T drill.

Just about any drill can be shot with a tighter standard with a little bit of creativity.


I assumed A zones the understood targets of these published standards Big Grin Havn't shot the Test, will shoot it next time out.
 
Posts: 3197 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:


It could be my technique or reaction times are just that bad, but the idea of a sub-1-second draw and fire on target seems absolutely superhuman to me at this point, at least from this rig.


If I had to guess, it’s probably your technique. I was running some guys through a training course a few weeks ago. It was about 28 degrees that day and I was pulling off around .8 draws at 4 yards. My average draw fire one at seven yards into an 8 inch circle is 1-1.1. And that’s out of a 6360. I’m about .2 faster out of a 6390.

But, the Nubmod makes a bit of difference for speed and not missing the draw in general. And there are ways to maximize the gear to shave a little time here and there.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36096 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
If I had to guess, it’s probably your technique. I was running some guys through a training course a few weeks ago. It was about 28 degrees that day and I was pulling off around .8 draws at 4 yards. My average draw fire one at seven yards into an 8 inch circle is 1-1.1. And that’s out of a 6360. I’m about .2 faster out of a 6390.



Thanks. It's good to know it can be done...just have to keep working at it!
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Does you Safariland have the cant to it or is it modded to be vertical?

If you are allowed, you might look into a straight drop modification from RDR Gear or someone. Also the Nub mod. Also, where does your holster sit in relation to your hand hanging naturally? If you can move your holster forward or back a bit that can help.

Disclaimer: I’ve only dabbled with a 7TS and am waiting a 6390 for Glock. I’m about a 1.15 to 1.25 draw average with an open holster so I’ve still got lots of work to do.

It may be tough to get your duty holster just so compared to a competition setup. I’ve seen some fast guys with duty holsters and I think Ernest Langdon has a few videos on it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6EKOt9EXPcg

Otherwise, I like the El Prez drill and Bill Drill. I need to add the F.A.S.T. drill as well. I have to concentrate hard still to start moving at the B rather than the P of beep. That’s about .3 seconds difference.




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Posts: 8064 | Location: West | Registered: November 26, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Riley:
Does you Safariland have the cant to it or is it modded to be vertical?

If you are allowed, you might look into a straight drop modification from RDR Gear or someone. Also the Nub mod. Also, where does your holster sit in relation to your hand hanging naturally? If you can move your holster forward or back a bit that can help.

Disclaimer: I’ve only dabbled with a 7TS and am waiting a 6390 for Glock. I’m about a 1.15 to 1.25 draw average with an open holster so I’ve still got lots of work to do.

It may be tough to get your duty holster just so compared to a competition setup. I’ve seen some fast guys with duty holsters and I think Ernest Langdon has a few videos on it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6EKOt9EXPcg

Otherwise, I like the El Prez drill and Bill Drill. I need to add the F.A.S.T. drill as well. I have to concentrate hard still to start moving at the B rather than the P of beep. That’s about .3 seconds difference.


Good point on reacting to the B instead of the P...I'll have to give that a try and see if I can improve my reaction time. Thanks for the video, too...some interesting pointers. I've been starting from the interview position...hands in front of my torso, nothing touching the gun. Ernest kind of gave himself an advantage by establishing a "touch index", but I'm trying to stay away from that. If we're going to nipick, he was also running a 6280, which only has the hood and lacks the ALS.

I get complained on enough, and have been accused multiple times of "he's got his hand on his gun!!!" when it's nowhere near it (thank God for video!). I can't make every approach to a vehicle stop or other situation with my hand already on my gun. Not only do I occasionally have to do other things with my hands (I've also trained to drop stuff at the start of a draw, but that's not what I'm working on here), and have to deal with the complaints from the public that I "tried to draw a gun on them" or intimidated them by resting my hand on my gun, but it also projects fear on my part and a lack of confidence to the suspect which can undermine my control of the interaction. As such, the draw I'm working on starts with my hands at the interview position, centerline to the body like I'm writing in a notebook, because that's where they're likely to start in real life.

The Nub mod is an interesting idea. This thread is the first I've heard of it. It definitely makes sense in regard to speeding up your draw by giving your thumb a larger point of contact. My concern is, does it also make it easier for an assailant to defeat the retention on your holster? I'm curious as I've never seen one in person, but it seems as if something that makes it easier for you to defeat the retention would work for them as well. Gun grabs are a real thing, and I've actually been around more attempts at those than quick-draw type situations.
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Nub mod will make it easier for a snatch as well unfortunately.

I did not notice he didn’t have the ALS.




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Posts: 8064 | Location: West | Registered: November 26, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, in addition to dryfire, I spent some time on the range today doing draw drills. It was in the low 20s and I was standing in a foot of snow...didn't wear gloves and my hands hate me. I'm still around 1.5 seconds from the interview position. Starting with my hand on the gun like Ernest did in the video above I was right above 1 second (1.02-1.05 range) out of my 6360. A quarter second behind Ernest Langdon...I won't beat myself up too much over that, lol.

It seems I'm losing a lot of time establishing my grip when drawing from the interview position, and I know my presentation and sight alignment could be cleaner, so there's room there to shave time, too. Gonna keep working at it.
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Last thing on my mind is a snatch. Mechanical devices on a holster are to keep the gun from falling out when I run. Disarm prevention is awareness and technique.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36096 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So why use the “interview position”? Because they said so in the academy? Serious question.

My start position is hands down at my sides. I use the inside of my forearm and index it against the gun.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36096 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Because they said so in the academy?



I'll be honest and admit that's likely where it started...probably goes back even further than the academy to prebasic. It's the baseline standard that we were expected to start from in most scenarios, and it got used in Firearms and DTs A LOT. But I've put some of my own thought into it as well.

Beginning the draw from interview provides an avenue in a training setting to start the draw from a position where my hands aren't staged on my gun. No, I don't stand around in the interview position all the time at work, either, but my hands also can't always be down by my gun...I'm constantly using them to do other things. Even though I try to keep my right hand empty and unoccupied, it's not practical or possible 100% of the time. Starting from that position forces me to find the gun and establish my grip from a non-prepped position where my hand starts clear of the gun.

There are certainly positions other than interview that could achieve the same goal...but it was an easy choice due to familiarity through previous training. Clearly every real-life draw won't start from interview, either, but picking a consistent position allows for a consistent, measurable baseline while still achieving the above-stated goals.

quote:
Disarm prevention is awareness and technique.


Agreed. If your primary means of stopping a gun grab is your holster retention, that's a problem. But it is a nice extra layer of protection, and I know of a couple of first-hand accounts from cops in my county where it's bought enough time for an officer who was actively fighting with a suspect to take measures to prevent a gun grab. Ideally it never gets that far, but none of us is perfect, and when the cost of failure is getting shot with your own gun, it's nice to have gear that can tilt the scales in your favor rather than the other guy's.

So that's my thought process. I definitely don't have all (or maybe even any of) the answers...but that's how I got to where I'm at.
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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COM = center of mass? CNS = central nervous system (head)?
 
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Originally posted by Tgrshrk99:
COM = center of mass? CNS = central nervous system (head)?


Yes, at least that's the meaning I've always understood those abbreviations to mean.
 
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