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The origin of the 9x18mm Police cartridge- the 8x21mm and 9x18mm Ultra cartridges Login/Join 
OTD
SIG-Sauer
Anthropologist
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malysh:
quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
quote:
Originally posted by Blume9mm:
thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?


There is a lot of history attached to this pistol which goes beyond common forum or Wikipedia knowledge.It´s a significant piece in SIG project history on the search for the ideal police pistol and the source for the development of the Walther PP-Super. The concept of the P230 in 9x18 and the experience learned from its flaws was most likely the source for the develpment .357 SIG. It´s somenting SIG collectors want to have and are willing to pay for.



Can you please explain to me how the 9x18 cartridge was most likely the source for development of the .357 SIG Cartridge?
I am no expert about cartridge development, but I don't see this at all.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Mike


There is no technical connetion between the 9mmx18 Police and the .357 SIG. One was developped by Hirtenberger in Austria in the eraly 70´s, the other by Federal in the USA in the mid 90´s. SIG was in both cases the driving force behind the two rounds. The connection between the .357 P229 and the 9x18 P230 was the SIG concept for the ideal LEO pistol which demanded for a tailored combination between handgun and ammo.
SIG chose to reinforce the P228 to handle the 357 SIG. The developpment of the P230 was a bit more complex but it is basically an improved Mauser HSC with the Sauer patent firing pin safety and some tweeks in the chamber design to make the pistol work as intended. Two different pistols, two different rounds, same idea in the serach for the ideal LEO pistol.
 
Posts: 3790 | Location: Switzerland | Registered: January 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
CAR
Member
Picture of CAR
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This is a great thread, thank you to all who have contributed.

I have been intrigued by the Walther PP Super since I first saw one in the late 1980's.
 
Posts: 926 | Location: Ohio | Registered: May 11, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
OTD
SIG-Sauer
Anthropologist
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
CIP does not differentiate between 9mm Police and 9mm Ultra but is publishing the case dimensions for the 9 x 18 Police shown in the diagram above.

quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
In that case, the name 9mm Ultra in modern usage no longer refers to the original 9mm GECO/9mm Ultra cartridge, as the 9mm Police is a tapered cartridge case, whereas the 9mm GECO is a straight walled case.



[Meyer K.D; DWJ;08/1975] 9x18Police (1970) SIG/Hirtenberger = 9x18Ultra (1970) Walther/Geco ≠ 9x18 Ultra (1934) Walther/Gutsav Genschow

Mr.Meyer was a member of the SIGSauer engineering team.
 
Posts: 3790 | Location: Switzerland | Registered: January 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Malysh
Member
Picture of Malysh
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
quote:
Originally posted by Malysh:
quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
quote:
Originally posted by Blume9mm:
thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?


There is a lot of history attached to this pistol which goes beyond common forum or Wikipedia knowledge.It´s a significant piece in SIG project history on the search for the ideal police pistol and the source for the development of the Walther PP-Super. The concept of the P230 in 9x18 and the experience learned from its flaws was most likely the source for the develpment .357 SIG. It´s somenting SIG collectors want to have and are willing to pay for.



Can you please explain to me how the 9x18 cartridge was most likely the source for development of the .357 SIG Cartridge?
I am no expert about cartridge development, but I don't see this at all.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Mike


There is no technical connetion between the 9mmx18 Police and the .357 SIG. One was developped by Hirtenberger in Austria in the eraly 70´s, the other by Federal in the USA in the mid 90´s. SIG was in both cases the driving force behind the two rounds. The connection between the .357 P229 and the 9x18 P230 was the SIG concept for the ideal LEO pistol which demanded for a tailored combination between handgun and ammo.
SIG chose to reinforce the P228 to handle the 357 SIG. The developpment of the P230 was a bit more complex but it is basically an improved Mauser HSC with the Sauer patent firing pin safety and some tweeks in the chamber design to make the pistol work as intended. Two different pistols, two different rounds, same idea in the serach for the ideal LEO pistol.


OK, thanks for your reply. I also cannot see any technical connection between the 9x18 Police Cartridge and the 357 SIG.

Conceptually, I understand and agree that the motivation was to develop the "ideal Law Enforcement" caliber, although there is no such thing as one ideal cartridge. It would be like playing golf with only one golf club, if you know what I mean.

I am familiar with the old Ultra cartridge from studying and collecting Walther pistols for many years. But only basically familiar with the 9x18 Police as offered in SIG 230 and Walther PP Super pistols.

Very interesting study.
Thanks OTD and Parabellum.
 
Posts: 431 | Location: PA | Registered: November 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jim Watson
Member
posted Hide Post
I think the German police were wanting to move up from their traditional .32s to something similar but more powerful.
Then the Red Army Faction and the Bader Meinhoff Gang convinced them to go all the way up to 9mm P to match the submachine guns they were increasingly carrying. I read of the P5,6,7 programme in the old Handgunner Ltd. periodical in the 1970s.
 
Posts: 3336 | Location: Florence, Alabama, USA | Registered: July 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sunset_Va
Waiting for Hachiko
Picture of Sunset_Va
posted Hide Post
Interesting thread.

This company is a source for high quality unique ammo. They have the 9 x 18 Ultra in a HP loading.

Reed's Custom Ammo
https://shop.reedsammo.com/9x18-Ultra_c182.htm

I have ordered from them , and been very pleased. Just thought I would pass this on to those seeking Ultra ammo.

Reed's also has a lot of 8 mm ammo and other old European rifle and pistol ammo.

This is new ammo loaded with modern components.


美しい犬
 
Posts: 6673 | Location: Near the Metropolis of Tightsqueeze, Va | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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