quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
CIP does not differentiate between 9mm Police and 9mm Ultra but is publishing the case dimensions for the 9 x 18 Police shown in the diagram above.

In that case, the name 9mm Ultra in modern usage no longer refers to the original 9mm GECO/9mm Ultra cartridge, as the 9mm Police is a tapered cartridge case, whereas the 9mm GECO is a straight walled case.

The following drawing appears on page 213 of Warren Buxton's The P.38 Pistol, Volume Three. This drawing jibes with the diagram I posted earlier, showing the 9mm Ultra as a straight walled case. The straight walled case makes sense, since the 9x17mm (aka .380 ACP, aka 9mm kurz) already in use by Germany at the time is also a straight walled case, and since, Per Manfred Kersten, the 9mm Ultra cartridge was tested first in Walther PP pistols, before Walther determined this to be an unsuitable platform, and the PP was chambered for the 9x17mm (aka .380 ACP, aka 9mm kurz), and all Walther had to do was to lengthen the chamber in the PP by 1 millimeter. They then began development on the pistol known as the Ultra, which, by the way, was a locked-breech, rotating barrel pistol.

Note the drawing date of 1939

quote:

Primary sources I had access to mention the 9x18 Police as a project between SIG and Hirtenberger, with the intend to create the most powerful 9mm round, that could be shot form a blow back action, intentionally excluding the 9mm Mak as a possible already existing alternative.

The ideal combustion room is a possible explenation for the close similarity of the Ultra and the Police. Hirtenberger confirmed with its newly desinged case what Geco create 30 years before with the Ultra, though with a higher performance as the Ultra. With the project in minde and the measures SIG had to introduce in the chamber desing in the P230 of said caliber, I would consider the 9mm Ultra as a stand alone round specially desinged for the P230 while Walther and Renato Gamba jumped the waggon when the info about the new round was communicated.

According to Manfred Kersten, Hirtenberger was already working on a round they referred to as the 9mm Kurz Super when approached to develop the modern version of the 9mm Ultra in the 1970.

For a side note: Rankin Vol. III P.196 mentioned the Police not the be the same as the Ultra.

I think we have to adjust our sources. I´m working with Kersten 1st edition, 1997, in German I assume you are having the same book but in English. Kersten is mentioning the Ultra round used in the PP trials as an 8mm. How is it specified in the English translation?

The indicator for the 9mm Police seems still to be speculation.

Kersten is mentioning it to be an independent developement.

From the correspondence between a collector and SIG, it´s been designed to fit the SIG concept study for the "Ideal Police Pistol" project meaning a parallel developement of the P230 and the 9mm Ultra in a joint project between SIG and Hirtenberger.

BTW, here is the link to CIP: https://www.cip-bobp.org/en/tdcc

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
I think we have to adjust our sources. I´m working with Kersten 1st edition, 1997, in German I assume you are having the same book but in English. Kersten is mentioning the Ultra round used in the PP trials as an 8mm. How is it specified in the English translation?

Yes, I have the English translation of the same book, and the cartridge is specified as 8mm, which, it seems to me, is merely a typographical error.

Also, I have the English translation of the Kersten/Schiller/Echstädt two volume set, Walther - A German Success Story, much of which is derived verbatim from Kersten's earlier book, and the same error is repeated therein:

quote:

With regard to its developed energy, the 8mm Ultra falls between that of the 7.65mm Browning and the 9mm Short.

- Walther - A German Success Story volume 1, page 200

I've no doubt that this is a typographical error and nothing more, as the very next sentence in the paragraph refers to the "(9x18mm) 9mm Ultra".

I was expecting a typo too, but obviously there was a Geco 8x21 Ultra (1934).

Kersten is talking of two trials. (which made sense the way he wrote the sentences) One in or around 1934 with PP´s converted to 8mm x 21 Ultra and one around 1936 with PP´s converted to 9mm x 18 Ultra.

You will find furter information about the 8x21 Ultra (div. picturs and datasheet) over at cartridgecollectors.org.

It´s new to me too. Interesting.

Thank you, yes, I found it. Shame on Herr Kersten for such a shoddy piece of writing. I've gone back and reviewed the text and it's quite confusing. All this time, I've attributed it to a typo and a less than perfect English translation, and here all along was an intriguing topic which was obscured by his spastic prose. I see it now, in the quote I referenced: "With regard to its developed energy, the 8mm Ultra falls between that of the 7.65mm Browning and the 9mm Short."
Yes, he's not referring to the 9mm Ultra, which would have energy greater than the 9x17 (aka .380 ACP aka 9mm Kurz, or, as he refers to it, the 9mm Short).

I've appropriated that data sheet image and cleaned it up a bit. Interesting that the projectile has a rebated heel, like the .22 rimfire. Are my eyes deceiving me? Such a short bearing length if it is rebated.



kaschi, at this point, I think it best to rename this thread, if you have no objection, since it's gone far afield of the original topic.

From the original German text it´s clear that two trials with different ammo types had been conducted. Confusing is the reference to an 8mm round without any closer specification, at least in the second extended edition by Schiller and Eichstädt.

But let´s be fair and "de moritus nil nisi bene", Walther Zella-Mehlis or Sauer Suhl are difficult fields for investigative gun writers who want to provide accurate historic information about gun developpments of either one of the two companies.

The datasheet was obviously taken from a recognition manual of the DDR criminal police. When they had the 8mm Ultra on file, there must be lot´s of other treasures in that manual.

Do we have sient readers who know where this recognition book can be found or at least the titel of the book/folder? Thanks in advance.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OTD,

This is very interesting data. Thank you for posting this. I too thought there were 3 or at most 4 variations on the 9mm cartridge. But as someone already pointed out, it has been the European cartridge of choice for 100 years in some form so it makes a lot of sense that it was tweaked a lot over the years for various uses. Thank you again for some excellent information. I am a collector but a novice collector at best and this is tremendously enlightening.

I've changed the name of the thread, since it moved away from the original topic quite rapidly and has morphed into something else.

Didn't know the variety was there. Then there is this one chambered in 9x21.





9x21 with 9x19 for comparison.

further informaton about the 8x21 and 9x18 Ultra can be found here.
-www.municion.org/9x18ultra/9x18ultra.htm
-www.municion.org/8/8x21Ultra.htm

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
further informaton about the 8x21 and 9x18 Ultra can be found here.
-www.municion.org/9x18ultra/9x18ultra.htm
-www.municion.org/8/8x21Ultra.htm

It there a connection between the 8mm Ultra and the 8mm x 19 Roth-Steyr. Case length is not the same, but how do other specs compare between the two. What are the specs in Barnes?

Barnes lists the 8mm Roth-Steyr but provides no cartridge dimensions.

Wikipedia provides the following:

Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter 8.16 mm (0.321 in)
Neck diameter 8.80 mm (0.346 in)
Base diameter 8.85 mm (0.348 in)
Rim diameter 8.85 mm (0.348 in)
Case length 18.65 mm (0.734 in)
Overall length 29.00 mm (1.142 in)

The case is shorter than the 8mm Ultra.

yes of course it´s too short. My unproven speculation is that it could have served as a base for a modification.

They just keep on trying for the Ultimate European Police Pistol
Consider the 21st century 7mm Penna and 7.92mm VBR.

Thanks for changing the name of this thread Para. I'm totally fine with the idea. Just got back from a couple of days out in the woods doing some deer hunting where it was nice to take a break from the internet.

I have seen a couple of the P230 with the 9mm Police round on GB. I would like to get one of those in addition to one of the Japanese .32 and one of the 22lr P232. That would get me all of the options available to the 230/232.

Isn't the 9x21 more popular and common in Italy?

quote:

Originally posted by Sunset_Va:
Isn't the 9x21 more popular and common in Italy?

Yes, but power and total length correspond to the 9x19(Parabellum)and would thus be too powerful for the P230. 9x18 was meant as most strongest possible cartridge for a blowback system as the P230's. On this base, it would also have been ideal to suppress as quickest subsonic standard 9mm cartridge in the 1980's.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?

There is a lot of history attached to this pistol which goes beyond common forum or Wikipedia knowledge.It´s a significant piece in SIG project history on the search for the ideal police pistol and the source for the development of the Walther PP-Super. The concept of the P230 in 9x18 and the experience learned from its flaws was most likely the source for the develpment .357 SIG. It´s somenting SIG collectors want to have and are willing to pay for.

Can you please explain to me how the 9x18 cartridge was most likely the source for development of the .357 SIG Cartridge?
I am no expert about cartridge development, but I don't see this at all.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Mike

Thanks Para and OTD for the excellent information on the 9x18 differences.
I was never sure about the 9mm police cartridge vs 9mm ultra.
Para you have a couple of beautiful examples of German excellence.