There's a P230 in 9mm Police for sale on GB. While these show up from time to time, what I really found interesting was the holster that accompanies the gun. It's black and is styled similar to that of Walther PP duty holsters but does not have the usual spare mag sleve/pouch. The manufacturer's info is located on the back side ("W. Bauer, Zürich, 78"). If you're interested in having a look, it can be seen at GB Item # 839741454. Not cheap at about $1000 (I'm not affiliated with it or the seller in any way) but just thought some of you may be interested in seeing the holster. BTW, there are no proof marks visible on this particular P230. Where were they usually placed?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

GB description is wrong. It's not Zürich issue but Cantonal Police Zug. Proof markings can be seen on the LH side of the slide, near the slide serration. Other cities or cantons using the 230 in 9×18 where Zug, city of Schaffhausen, city of Neuhausen and criminal police Zürich.

Mine- which is in better condition- is S106841 and proofed 1980. I'd have to pull out the pistol to check, but IIRC, the proof date is on the right side of the frame's barrel flange, so this is not visible unless the slide is removed.

Mine is a commercial model imported by a small importer in early 2006, and, yes, they are quite scarce anywhere, but especially so in the US. I posted this pic a while back and no one batted an eye. I wonder if people knew what I was showing them. Red, one piece piano lid cardboard box. Two mags, one with witness holes and the other- which I presume is original to the pistol- is slotted, as you see in the pics on GB. The 9x18 P230 has a steel frame.

I couldn't tell you about the holster, but there were very few of these pistols produced. Every example I've seen has a serial number in the low S100,000 range, usually in the range of S105xxx to S108xxx.

gorgeous...is this caliber the same as 9mm ultra?

Bill

So, I'm now presuming that is a different cartridge and different from 9mm luger...

thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
So, I'm now presuming that is a different cartridge and different from 9mm luger...

What clued you into that? The cartridge designation, or the diagram I put up?

quote:

thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?

Well, if you can't find it, you get to keep your grand, and if you do find it, you're a SIG collector who has the taste to appreciate it and the ability to recognize it for what it is.

Otherwise, pearls before swine...

I've got a mint Walther PP Super in the same caliber. I don't shoot that one, either. Maybe a clue will come to you in the night.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
thousand dollars for a gun you can't find or have to spend a fortune for the ammo?

There is a lot of history attached to this pistol which goes beyond common forum or Wikipedia knowledge.It´s a significant piece in SIG project history on the search for the ideal police pistol and the source for the development of the Walther PP-Super. The concept of the P230 in 9x18 and the experience learned from its flaws was most likely the source for the develpment .357 SIG. It´s somenting SIG collectors want to have and are willing to pay for.

Parabellum, "now that was tongue in check for sure..." thanks for the diagram.. I never knew there were so many variations on the 9mm cartridge. I always thought there was just long and short....

I wish I had the resources to be a collector but I like to shoot what I have and not feel my wallet pocket burning while I do it.

I thought while I was searching gun broker I saw another P230 in 9mm police with a starting bid in the 500s. Did not come with the cool holster though.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

thanks for this...

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by SiGagain:
gorgeous...is this caliber the same as 9mm ultra?

Well, it depends upon who you ask, it seems.

The 9mm Ultra cartridge was developed in 1935/36 by Gustave Genschow Company, also known as GECO. The cartridge was originally called the 9mm GECO. GECO had contracts with the Luftwaffe, who wanted a small pistol which was more powerful than the 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP) and the 9mm GECO cartridge was developed for this purpose. In the early 1940s, Walther developed a pistol they called the 9mm Ultra, chambered for GECO's proprietary cartridge. This is how the cartridge became known as the 9mm Ultra. To the best of my knowledge, the 9mm Ultra pistol never made it into production, but here is a photo of a rare, possibly one of a kind prototype of the Ultra. GECO did produce 25,000 rounds of 9mm Ultra ammunition for the Heereswaffenamt, the German Army Weapons Agency.



Now, according to my copy of Barnes' Cartridges of the World, the cartridge chambered by the 9X18 Police P230 and PP Super is the very same cartridge which GECO developed in the 1930s. You can see that a box of 1970s GECO cartridges which accompanied ny Walther PP Super when I bought it is marked "9x18 Ultra" and not "9x18 Police".
My SIG P230 9x18 is marked "9mm Police". My Walther PP Super is marked "Cal. 9x18".





But, according to the diagram I posted earlier, the Ultra and Police cartridges are dimensionally different. That's an old image I pulled off the internet many years ago. I do not recall the source, although it appears to be European in origin, because it uses commas and not periods in the measurement figures.

Barnes specifies Hirtenberger's factory loading of the 9mm Ultra/9x18 Police as a 100 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1060 fps. The GECO loading of this cartrdge was a bit less warm, with a 94 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1054 fps. Fiocchi still offers this cartridge (also referring to it at the 9x18 Ultra) with a 100 grain fmj truncated cone bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1065 fps.

Perhaps OTD can offer some clarification at to the Ultra/Police differences, if any.

Both of those pistols are real beauties Para and the PP Super has an especially unique look about it. Based on the IA (1980) date code, I'm pretty sure it was manufactured toward the end of the PP Super's production run. When was production of the P230 in 9mm Police halted?

Educational thread, here. Thanks for dropping some knowledge, fellas. I'm hobbyist level at best and learned about calibers I've never heard of.

I knew of the 9x18 Makarov and I once handled a pistol in 9mm Largo (I believe?) once and of course, the 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP). Makes sense so many different projectile weights and cartridge dimensions and powder measures were experimented with in that "caliber." For a sidearm either openly carried, or concealed, it sure seems to be in the sweet spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I never knew there were so many variations on the 9mm cartridge. I always thought there was just long and short....

While the attached diagram illustrates several pistol cartridges similar in length to the 9mm Parabellum, there are nearly two dozen various 9mm cartridges ranging in case length from 17mm to 23mm. Before viewing the diagram, I too was of the understanding 9mm Police and 9mm Ultra were dimensionally identical. Excellent information!

I've got a question about the diagram Para so graciously posted, there are two numbers on the left side of the cartridges and on several of them they are not the same and I can't figure out why. Here is a diagram of my question.

the Walther PP Super I have seen photos of and now your P230 9mm Police is what prompted my questions...thanks for the information...

Bill

Regarding Blume9mm's question as to the difference in dimensions in some cartridge cases: It seems some cases were designed to be tapered and some totally straight. What the reason is I do not know but maybe reliability was a key factor in the development? The 9mm Parabellum fires from handguns that use a locked breech system while the variety of 9x18 cartridges and also the 9x17(380 acp) use straight blowback. Someone here will be sure to know and chime in.

Numbers on the left are case diameters, showing some are tapered, some are straight.
Note that the 9mm Police has the same rim diameter as .380, slightly rebated below a case body of intermediate size.

I think the 9mm Browning Long is underappreciated. Well, it was then, too; I know of only three pistols chambered for it.

Thanks, I was thinking those numbers were the vertical length in the diagram not the diameter. That 'splains' it. Still can't figure out why gun manufactures, both past and present, have to make things so difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Barnes specifies Hirtenberger's factory loading of the 9mm Ultra/9x18 Police as a 100 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1060 fps. The GECO loading of this cartrdge was a bit less warm, with a 94 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1054 fps. Fiocchi still offers this cartridge (also referring to it at the 9x18 Ultra) with a 100 grain fmj truncated cone bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1065 fps.

Perhaps OTD can offer some clarification at to the Ultra/Police differences, if any.

CIP does not differentiate between 9mm Police and 9mm Ultra but is publishing the case dimensions for the 9 x 18 Police shown in the diagram above.

Primary sources I had access to mention the 9x18 Police as a project between SIG and Hirtenberger, with the intend to create the most powerful 9mm round, that could be shot form a blow back action, intentionally excluding the 9mm Mak as a possible already existing alternative.

The ideal combustion room is a possible explenation for the close similarity of the Ultra and the Police. Hirtenberger confirmed with its newly desinged case what Geco create 30 years before with the Ultra, though with a higher performance as the Ultra. With the project in minde and the measures SIG had to introduce in the chamber desing in the P230 of said caliber, I would consider the 9mm Ultra as a stand alone round specially desinged for the P230 while Walther and Renato Gamba jumped the waggon when the info about the new round was communicated.

The size of the P230 is also explained with the performance of the 9x18. If it was intended to be a .380/.32 pistol, SIG could have built it smaller.