Arguing for arguments sake...

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:

Of course not.
He stated that he took his brand new gun to the range and shot a number of rounds through it and had two that failed to extract and showed photos of those. So I would take those two rounds and a few of the others on the ground to compare when I got back and could measure them.
Keep it simple if you want to determine the problem, unless that's not the point.

He quoted me and replied to me; hence, my response.

There are numerous potential reasons for failure to extract.

I'll try to answer the question about crappy ammo causing malfunctions to the best of my experience.

My carbine is a RA XCR. Because it uses an AK style bolt that is quite robust, I'm willing to use steel cased ammo in it. However, I can experience two types of failures by doing so. First, they're not loaded at "hot" as quality brass ammo. The XCR uses an adjustable gas dial. When using quality ammo, I set it to S (for suppressed, the smallest hole) and get fine cycling and ejection with minimal felt recoil. With steel cased Wolf (usually military classic...the polymer coated stuff), I need to run setting 2 for proper function. So, crap ammo can have lower pressure charges, or different burn rates, that can affect cycling. However, this doesn't apply to the OP.

The second malfunction I can experience is stuck cases/FTE. A lot used to be made about the lacquer coated ammo; people said the heat would melt some of the lacquer, which would get in the chamber then solidify and cause extraction problems. That myth seems to have been solidly debunked, though some claim the same still happens and include the polymer coatings, saying they melt too. Instead, what is likely occurring is the steel cases don't expand and contract the way brass does. So when the brass expands against the chamber walls, it seals a route for gasses to escape. Steel doesn't expand the same and may allow gas to slip by the cartridge. Coupled with dirtier burning ammo, the chamber gets build up, and eventually enough to hold the cartridge from being extracted. I've had several stuck cases, where even pogoing the rifle won't free the case. Again the bolt and extractor are robust, and will just pull the rim back. Once I get a failure cleared (cleaning rod from muzzle), I break out the chamber brush and give a good scrub then I'm back in business. Generally, kinda like beer before liquor, never sicker, it's okay to shoot brass then steel, but not steel then brass.

Now pistols are a bit different obviously. The gas operated rifle's bolt is locked in battery and the recoil from the round cannot start it cycling. Instead it requires the gas operating on the piston, which pushes the BCG rearward. The carrier has the camming cuts to turn the bolt and unlock it as it retracts. Generally, a pistol uses the recoil to cycle the slide and actually is typically designed with a delay system to 1) reduce felt recoil and 2) allow lower spring rates to be used. But you all probably already know all that. So crappy pistol ammo may induce failures by the same method as explained above; the cases don't expand, allow gasses to pass by and make deposits in the chamber, which can then cause other rounds to get stuck. I don't know much about the metallurgical properties of aluminum cases, but I would expect them to expand but not contract as much as brass, or as quickly. So why may this cause an issue with a P365 but not a P226? Well, the P365 slide has considerably less mass and will start to move earlier and will accelerate faster. It may start to retract too quickly, where the case hasn't had the chance to contract. Aluminum cases that don't contract (I presume) are more likely to cause issues in this manner. A larger pistol takes just a bit longer to move, which will allow the pressure to drop and the case to contract. Now, I also believe many pistols, even with brass, don't seal great. I've seen carbon deposits on my brass cases from my SIGs. My PPQ, not so much, but it has a stepped chamber to help make a seal. In fact, I had some mis-sized reloads that worked fine in my SIGs actually jam my PPQ so tight I needed a mallet and punch to free it up.

So my thoughts with the OP, which is why I originally asked what the rims looked like, is he got some carbon build up as he shot. Once he got to the aluminum cased stuff, he has some build up and the aluminum expanded slightly but didn't contract and friction locked the round in the chamber. If that was the case, I'd expect to see definite extractor marks on the rim, perhaps even a bent rim, indicating the pistol was trying like hell to pry it out.

Another possibility may be that crappy ammo may have different burn rates, where quality stuff burns quickly where pressure spikes and drops and crappy ammo burns slower, having a wider pressure curve. So quality ammo pressure may peak higher, but pressure levels drop quick enough for the cases to retract in time for the pistol unlocking and cycling. Crappy ammo may experienced prolonged pressure that keeps the case expanded longer, resulting in FTEs.

Now is any of this definitely happening? Nope. I don't know what exactly is happening. Maybe my information and/or understanding of it is flawed. But in my mind, if there are extractor marks, even notched or peeled back rims, it tells me the gun is trying to pull out a round that has too much friction in the chamber. It could be a rough chamber, it could be the pistol is unlocking early, it could be several things. But my experience has taught me to look at the ammo first, especially if it's not generally known as high quality. If there's no extractor marks, I'm looking at the extractor for damage or spring problems. Kinda like if your Ford isn't running smooth, you don't just change a bunch of parts. You check for evidence of problems (fouled plugs, blue or white smoke in exhaust) to determine the actual root cause.

Anyway, I'm sorry if you read all of my blathering. You won't get that time of your life back. I hope the OP is able to troubleshoot the problem and resolve it. But you have to keep an open mind about where the problem may lie.

It's been a couple days...did I write that novel just for no one to get mad or indignant? Feel like I wasted my time.

What about update from OP? It's the gun a choke fest or master blaster?

Bought my 365 and took it directly to the range. Fired about 40 rounds of mixed ammo and had trigger failure. Crap... so call sig and send it in. Expected to to take at least 2-3 weeks. Got it back today after less than week. Note states replaced trigger spring.

Hope nothing else happens. Plan to test it again this weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
It's been a couple days...did I write that novel just for no one to get mad or indignant? Feel like I wasted my time.

What about update from OP? It's the gun a choke fest or master blaster?

Very informative. Thank you for taking the time to write it

Another aspect that I’ve not seen spoken of is the OAL of the round

Each pistol works best with a specific OAL

I know my father has loaded for matches specific to what pistol he is shooting. His CZ prefers a longer OAL, which when placed in a STI barrel didn’t fit correctly. He measures every 10th round for OAL, powder measure etc to ensure consistency

Mass production range ammo will have dramatic variances over the course of thousands of rounds. Which, could lead to some of the cheap ammo related failures

I do know I’ve fired some of his “powder puff” minor power factor reloads through my 365 with zero issues

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks for those photos, sigarmsp226. The firing pin drag marks on the primers are definitely more pronounced than I’ve seen with any other pistols.

Now my question for P365 owners is how the ejection patterns with that gun compare to other 9mm SIGs’. Do the cases end up farther away, closer, or about the same as with other SIG pistols?

Much closer and predictably over my right shoulder about 4 o’clock

All my other Sigs throw about 3:30 10 feet plus away

Many thanks for such a comprehensive update.

quote:

Originally posted by dwd1985:
My only complaint is these X-ray sights. I really dislike them, you have to aim MUCH higher than the traditional Sig sights, not only covering the entire target with the sight posts, but IMHO, aiming even slightly above the target. Obviously this changes somewhat with distance, but even at 25 yards I had to aim "through" the bottom of the sight posts to hit the 10x10 steel. Hopefully someday soon, a replacement sight system will be offered.

When I got mine, I did a 25 yard test, off a pistol rest, using AE 124 grain ammo and it was dead-on, at 25 yards, shooting 2-3" groups. Pretty incredible, for such a small gun.

I took my new P365 (April 20something dated) out Saturday for the first time. Lots of issues leading up to a dead trigger after around 120 rounds.

Rather than mess with it too much, I took it straight back to my dealer who offered to handle the return for repairs.

100 rds Winchester White Box 115 gr
20 rds Winchester Brown Box (Duty grade?) 115 gr

Numerous failures to return to battery (lost count)
2 instances of the slide locking back prematurely (maybe my fault)
3 light primer strikes

Other than the above, it shot well and I hope it gets fixed up to the point I can trust it to replace my Glock 43 and 19 for carry.

I had lots of issues with my Beretta Nano at first, but it became one of my favorites after it was broken in- before the Glock 43.

I’ll report back...

Edit: to be clear, the trigger is loose. It doesn’t reset or click or anything anymore.

Edit2: Youtube video: https://youtu.be/ib4N1QfXB5M

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
It's been a couple days...did I write that novel just for no one to get mad or indignant? Feel like I wasted my time.

What about update from OP? It's the gun a choke fest or master blaster?

Some do not read the replies if they are not concise, they skip the novels.

quote:

Originally posted by dwd1985:
...My only complaint is these X-ray sights. I really dislike them, you have to aim MUCH higher than the traditional Sig sights...

I just took mine out for the second range trip and had no issues with Freedom Munitions 115gr FMJ, Blazer Brass 115 FMJ, Geco 124gr FMJ and Hornady Critical Defense 115gr. This just happened to be the ammo I had on hand. I ran another 120 rounds total through it with no issues. I do have the same complaint about the sights. I like X-Ray sights in general since they're easy for my eyes to pick up but I had to aim high for sure. I thought it was just me but my son noticed the same thing. We were shooting at varying distances between 10-15 yards.

Try using 124 grain ammo. At 25 yards, off a bench, it will shoot 2-3 inches higher.