So, who won??

Here I took some photos for you to follow along:

Pull the trigger and thumb the hammer down:


Don’t let your finger off the trigger. The hammer will rest here:


Push the hammer forward


The firing pin block is pushed out of the way and the firing pin is free to move. This is what it would look like if you could see through to the breech face. Notice the firing pin tip is visible. Notice nothing is pushing down on the firing pin block.


Now, without having to push on the block, because it’s already bypassed, if the gun were dropped on its hammer, the force would be transferred to the firing pin and this would happen:


What happens when that little nub pokes through? That’s right. A bang.

Now, I fully understand you’re thinking that there are safety systems in place to prevent a dropped pistol from firing. And you are correct, assuming they weren’t unintentionally bypassed by manipulating it, trying to fit a pistol into the wrong holster. Which brings me to my original point: use the decocker. Now, if you thumb it down, don’t push on the hammer and let off the trigger, yes it will reset to the safety intercept notch and the block will reset to its safe position, which is the same position as using the decocker. But nobody told Officer Paderez that doing what he did could kill him. And I don’t think anyone could predict that he would do such a thing. So to keep OP from doing it, I made sure to tell him only use the decocker. People can do unpredictable stuff when they don’t understand the mechanics behind it.

A little off topic but the 239 was a fine pistol.

I'm going to have to disagree with the assumption that dropping the hammer via the trigger can cause the gun to go off if dropped. It sounds like the the accident with Officer Peered was with a different model of Sig and so that may be the difference.

I have a P239 sitting on my desk with a laser cartridge in it and I just tried to 'fire' the pistol after dropping the hammer using the trigger and it won't do it... the hammer is still locked back away from the firing pin. and I've even tried hitting the hammer to make it fly forward and it won't go.

the hammer will go forward as long as you hold the trigger back but once you release the trigger there is a 'click' that locks the hammer back away from the rear of the firing pin. And here is the strange thing.... if I let the hammer go and fire off the laser cartridge and hold the trigger back it still won't set the cartridge off a second time hitting the back of the hammer. It seems there is some kind of multiple redundant safeties on this critter.

1) place thumb on hammer
2) pull trigger and hold it
3) thumb hammer down
4) push hammer to firing pin and hold it there
5) release trigger (still holding hammer down)
6) shove into holster (still holding hammer down)
7) fix snap strap across the back of the hammer, holding it against the firing pin.

Step 7 is what you seem to be missing. The trigger has been pulled, the firing pin block has been moved. The hammer is resting on the firing pin, with no block to impede its movement. As soon as the strap is undone, the hammer would rebound to the safety intercept notch and the firing pin should return and the block reset to the safe position. But while it is in that holster with the strap across the hammer, it can fire when dropped on the hammer.

I get it, it’s hard to imagine doing all of this.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BuddyChryst,

Use your P239 the way it was designed and it is safe and a great firearm.

There is no need to try different ways to make it unsafe.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
1) place thumb on hammer
2) pull trigger and hold it
3) thumb hammer down
4) push hammer to firing pin and hold it there
5) release trigger (still holding hammer down)
6) shove into holster (still holding hammer down)
7) fix snap strap across the back of the hammer, holding it against the firing pin.

You are right that will hold the hammer against the firing pin... now please explain to me how one does that intentionally.

Now on top of that I just did this and then dropped a pencil down in the barrel and pushing on the hammer the pencil not only doesn't move...you would think the firing pin is forward against the pencil since the hammer is against what looks like the back side of the firing pen but when I release the hammer the pencil does not fall further down in the barrel and so I'm still thinking there is some kind of firing pin block inside.

The officer in question did it to fit a gun into the holster he had instead of getting a proper one.

I brought it up because OP wanted to know if it was same to carry chambered with hammer down. The answer is yes, as long as you don’t do something outside of normal safe gun handling like this officer did. Because the officer clearly didn’t understand the mechanical functions involved and the OP doesn’t seem to either. To most of us, it seems like common sense. But common sense ain’t so common, or else Officer Paderez would be alive and maybe nearing retirement. Instead, his name is on some memorial wall.

The reason this story sticks in my head is because when I read it, it didn’t make sense to me. I had to try it myself. When I did, I was surprised. First I was surprised because it can happen. Second, because when I did it, my firing pin tip stuck out and stayed protruding from the breech face. Even though the back side was still moving. That’s how I found out my firing pin had broken at some point. And then there was the whole SIG changing FPPP style so I had to source the right part. For all my SIGs, that firing pin is the only part that’s ever broken. And it was on a ‘94 P229, so likely before they were doing the “dreaded” MIM. Anyway, that’s why I know the story, and why I mentioned it in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
The officer in question did it to fit a gun into the holster he had instead of getting a proper one.

When the gun fell and landed on its hammer, was it still holstered?

quote:

Originally posted by Patrick-SP2022:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
The officer in question did it to fit a gun into the holster he had instead of getting a proper one.

When the gun fell and landed on its hammer, was it still holstered?

I am going off of my memory which is always fraught with peril. I do recall the discussion on this forum when this tragic incident occurred. I believe that Officer Paderez's pistol was still holstered when it fell and landed hammer down.

I don't recall hearing anything about the holster not fitting correctly and Officer Paderez thumbing the hammer down so that the pistol would fit. But that does now make sense.

To my recollection, Officer Paderez had an older style P220 with the spur type hammer, as opposed to the new, radius type hammers. As I am led to believe the older style P220's did not have the hammer rebound spring which returns the hammer to the safety V-intercept notch once the trigger is released. So when Officer Paderez thumbed the hammer down, the hammer would remain against the firing pin. These gave Officer Paderez the extra tenth of an inch or so he needed to secure his thumb strap. But it also left the hammer resting against the firing pin, with the firing pin drop safety already bypassed.

Edit: I found the original L.A. Times article:

Veteran Officer Killed in Freak Firearm Accident

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Broadside,

quote:

Originally posted by Patrick-SP2022:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
The officer in question did it to fit a gun into the holster he had instead of getting a proper one.

When the gun fell and landed on its hammer, was it still holstered?

IIRC he was carrying it in the holster on a stack of files or something. Walking out to his patrol car at the start of shift. Dunno why it wasn’t on his belt/hip.

ETA: Went and looked it up. From https://camemorial.org/honor-r...sse-kenneth-paderez/
“ Paderez, a 10-year veteran of the San Fernando Police Department, had apparently been carrying his holstered .45-caliber gun in his hands as he walked through the department parking lot transferring material from his private vehicle to his marked unit.

Lt. Mike Langston said, “Paderez had stopped at the station about 6:45 a.m. to pick up a patrol car and was scheduled to attend a training class on radar use later that morning. The gun was secured in the holster, but he was carrying it in his hands, most likely along with other items. The hammer of the gun struck the ground when it dropped and discharged. We believe it was a freak accident.”

If I remember right, one of the investigators was on one of the boards at the time and explained how it happened.

I just took my P239 apart to look closer at the firing pin safety and I think now I see how it might could happen but only in a 'perfect storm". The issue is being able to retain the hammer all the way against the back of the rod that leads to the firing pin. I've got one more test to try and that is to send a borascope down the barrel to see where and what the pin does during this. I think the firing pin is actually out and pushing against the primer if you manage to do all this.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
The issue is being able to retain the hammer all the way against the back of the rod that leads to the firing pin.

Blue9mm, to the best of my knowledge, the older P220's with the sharp, spur tang didn't have the hammer rebound spring. So, if you thumbed the hammer forward it would remain resting against the firing pin.

This would seem to me to be an incredibly dangerous thing to do. Because you would be pressing the trigger with a live round in the trigger and then riding the hammer down.

quote:

BuddyChryst

I think he might be right if you do all the items he listed. My borroscope only looks at the firing pin straight on and so you can't really determine how fair it comes out in the test or when pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer normally... the pin is what I would call free floating or possibly even has a spring that causes it to retract after going forward and it is a very small amount of movement either way... I can get it to move following BuddyChryst's sequences...

the problem with saying riding the hammer down is just wrong or even worse, is that many of us grew up doing this with a revolver... my first semi-auto pistol was a Ruger P95 decock and it took me a while to get used to using that decock lever....

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
[
This would seem to me to be an incredibly dangerous thing to do. Because you would be pressing the trigger with a live round in the trigger and then riding the hammer down.

Back when I was a kid, hunting with a Remington Model 4 rolling block .22, that's was SOP, if you cocked the hammer but didn't take the shot, you pointed gun in safe direction, thumbed the hammer, squeezed the trigger and lowered hammer. That was how you had to make it safe to half cock.

As has been said over and over in this thread, if you trigger pull and thumb down the hammer on a DA/SA Sig, AND hold and secure the hammer forward before releasing the trigger, you have bypassed the firing pin block safety. An impact on the hammer can make it fire.

I can tell you 100% that if someone tries to fit a spur hammered sig into a holster with a thumbreak for a DAK hammer, they might make it work by thumbing the hammer down with the trigger pulled, holding it in place, and securing the snap. I’ve seen someone do it. Hell, I’ve seen them do it in the correct holster when the strap was right and not broken in yet. It’s a terrible idea and rests the hammer directly on the firing pin, defeating the hammer intercept. If that holstered weapon is dropped and lands in the hammer the odds of a discharge are very high. That isn’t a defect with the gun. That is a defect with the gun handler who has internal top ally defeated multiple safety features to create an unsafe situation.

A modern Sig decocks (or rebounds if DAO or DAK) to a position where the hammer is not in contact with the firing pin. These weapons are drop safe when used as designed. We did some in house testing before we went to the 229 from our previous duty weapon and are quite comfortable with the system from that standpoint. Guns were broken, but they didn’t pop any primed cases.

It’s designed to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber. I find it too big for pocket carry, but maybe the OP is a larger man than I with huge pockets.

the one problem I'm having with this is how do you insert a pistol into holster while keeping the trigger pulled? I can manage to hold the hammer all the way up against the back of the part that hits the firing pin but no way I can keep my finger on the trigger while the gun goes in the holster.

Also, I can manage with some work (serious finagling) to keep the hammer fully forward and strap it down with the one holster I have that has a strap that goes over the hammer and it will keep the hammer from moving back and re-setting itself to not go forward but for the life of me I can't hit that hammer hard enough to make the laser cartridge go off. I may try putting the pistol in a holster with the hammer strapped forward in a vise and hitting it with a hammer?

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
the one problem I'm having with this is how do you insert a pistol into holster while keeping the trigger pulled?

On the version of the P220 that Officer Palderez had, you don't need to. The older version of the P220 with the spur hammer tang does not have the hammer rebound spring. Once you thumb the hammer down it would remain resting against the firing pin until you either thumbed the hammer back into the safety V-intercept notch, pressed the trigger until the hammer engaged the safety V-intercept notch or racked the slide.

that makes sense... on the p239 the hammer wants to move back to the safe position... spring... and it takes some more effort, two hands and a lot of finagling, to actually get it in a holster and strapped with the hammer still fully forward.