Greetings,

Let me start by saying that I'm admittedly brand new to optics of any kind on handguns. However, I've recently purchased and installed a couple of different rail-mounted optic types for semi-autos, both of which are tac-light/laser combos, and I'm just curious . . . why does it appear that most law enforcement officials opt for a dedicated tac-light only, versus a tac-light/laser combo? This just seems kinda puzzling to me, and I'm hoping some law enforcement types might just chime in here.

Pricing between the two types of devices doesn't really seem to vary too much, and there are certainly tac-light/laser combos out there with perfectly bright (400+ lumens) of light, some that can even be charged via USB port rather than constantly changing batteries, so wouldn't you think the added laser would be a desirable feature for most? What am I missing here?

Many thanx!

(Rail-mounted light/lasers are not "optics". "Optics" are optical sights, like red dot sights or magnified scopes.)


Handgun lasers have a ton of drawbacks, and basically no positives for law enforcement purposes...


Lasers aren't much use past short distances.

Lasers don't work well in bright lighting.

It's easy for laser dots to get "lost" in the background, and lose track of where the dot is located during dynamic situations.

Lasers telegraph your presence during building clearings, unless you have momentary activation capability (which most lasers don't).

When you get a group of folks together who all have lasers and are all pointing them at the same target, how do you tell which dot is yours versus the many other identical dots on the target.

Etc.


As a result, lasers see basically no use in law enforcement, outside of being mounted on Tasers (which are inherently range tools that are unlikely to be used alongside several others at the same time and aren't going to be used for room clearing), or some very specialized use like some SWAT teams with specifically infrared lasers on their rifles to pair with their night vision devices for use during blacked-out operations.

quote:

Originally posted by Voyager:
I don't know what's considered to be "short distances", but the two combos that I just purchased are perfectly good out to 20-25 yards in twilight, and further in complete darkness.

Now activate your flashlight and see how visible that laser is during the resulting no-longer-twilight/darkness.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by Voyager:
I don't know what's considered to be "short distances", but the two combos that I just purchased are perfectly good out to 20-25 yards in twilight, and further in complete darkness.

Now activate your flashlight and see how visible that laser is during the resulting no-longer-twilight/darkness.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood me on that. I think I indicated earlier that the laser was essentially invisible and useless when the tac light was activated.

I have seen exactly one bodycam video of an officer-involved shooting where the officer had a laser on his gun. It was at an Applebees, they chased some clown out of a bathroom and outside, and he grabbed a steak knife off a table on the way out and tried to stab a female officer. Just enough space was created, and the partner drew and smoked the dude at about maybe three paces. His WML was set to strobe from the draw, and I distinctly recall there being a faint laser dot in the center of that disco party show, and thinking "how the hell would you even see it?"

Now, I've been told several times on this forum that the bodycam is not what the officer sees. However, that being the only shooting I've seen it in, and it being hard to see at the time even in "it would be pitch black but for the restaurant lights shining out into the greenspace," it seems like an extreme limited-use-case benefit sort of thing.

Honestly, I'm not all that convinced that lasers on guns are really useful for anything but IR under nightvision, unless you're handicapped in some fashion. If you can put a laser on someone, you can put a red dot or sights on them faster.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
(Rail-mounted light/lasers are not "optics". "Optics" are optical sights, like red dot sights or magnified scopes.)

Certain Holosun models and plenty of Amazon specials actually are both.

I’ve only used lasers on JFrames and with the very specific purpose of using them as pseudo night sights. I’ve never shot using the laser as my only aiming point it is supplemental to the irons only.

I’ve tinkered with lasers in the past beyond the above but found the various drawbacks as above. Modern optics have made them moot on most firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Voyager:
I'm afraid you've misunderstood me on that. I think I indicated earlier that the laser was essentially invisible and useless when the tac light was activated.

In law enforcement, you're ideally always going to be using a flashlight (mounted or handheld) in low-light/no light shooting.

Flashlights allow you to locate and identify potential threats, as well as continue to see and monitor the actions/movement of the threat.

If you have time to activate the laser on your combo light/laser, then you have time to activate the light. And since they're an either/or option because the laser becomes washed-out/overpowered and useless when the light is activated, then of the two, the light is the superior option.

So if a laser is only (mildly) useful in twilight/darkness lighting conditions, but it useless when you have your light activated as you will during twilight/darkness, there's no point in having the laser.


I would argue that most of these various negatives I've pointed out in this thread also apply to non-law-enforcement defensive handguns, though not all. Without sounding too harsh, I view handgun lasers as something that seems cool and seems like a good idea for newer/less experienced gun owners, but once you have experience, in-depth training, and some time to think through your defensive plans, chances are you'll recognize that the cons greatly outweigh any pros.

But if you want to have a laser, because there's some edge case where it might prove useful, that's totally your prerogative. However, I'd rank its importance right towards the bottom of the list of "things to be spending your gun money on", well below stuff like:
-Weapon mounted light
-Night sights and/or a red dot optic
-Significant training
-Quality defensive ammo
-Tons of practice and the associated ammo/range costs
-Quality holster and gun belt
-Etc.

If after you have all of the above, you want to add on a laser too, just because, then go for it.

My sincere thanks to those of you who chose to respond here. I truly appreciate and value your insights on this topic. After all, "learning" is what life is all about.

I started this thread with an acknowledgement that I was not an LE (law enforcement) official, and that I knew very very little about the use of tac lights and/or lasers on handguns. I also noted that on the basis of casual observations over the years, it appeared clear that lasers found very limited use in LE worldwide.

That said, the few things that prompted me to pose this initial question were as follows:

1) Pricing between tac lights and tac light/laser combos didn't seem to differ much.

2) Lasers generally draw far less power from the device battery than a tac light.

3) Toggling between the two functions (when using a combo device), including strobe, is essentially instantaneous.

4) Perhaps most importantly of all, lasers allow for "instantaneous" point of aim without the use of (and time required for sighting) iron sights.

And it was this latter point that really caught my attention.

Again, not being a police officer, I have no direct, immediate, adrenalin-driven, real life experience with it, but some months ago, I saw a memorable, relevant, and rather fascinating example on a TV episode of Cops . . .

Now, I'll grant you that this example is an exceedingly rare one, hardly worthy of justifying the routine use of lasers, but I think it's notable nonetheless:

Two officers responded to a home invasion, where some drug-crazed perp had broken into an occupied home. Upon arrival of LE, the perp had taken a husband and wife hostage in a dimly-lit upstairs bedroom. The perp was shooting wildly and randomly through the walls at the two officers, and one was actually struck. The other officer, had knocked the bedroom door down and taken immediate cover behind a steel file cabinet in the hallway. With his right hand and service weapon resting atop the file cabinet well above his line of sight, and his left hand stabilizing him against the cabinet in a crouched position, he peeked around the edge of the cabinet) and he placed the green laser center mass on the perp, killing him instantly. No tac light or iron sights were used.

Another interesting example of routine laser use without iron sights or tac light, comes from a friend of mine who lives in the Hill Country of central Texas. He lives in a very large rural property that is infested with wild (feral) pigs. With his wife doing the driving, he often shoots them from the cab of his truck on the road at night, while in motion, from extremely close to relatively long distances (5-60 yards), using a laser-mounted 10 mm. When shooting at them at super long ranges from the ranch house at night (400-600 yards), he uses a similar laser on a 6.5 Creedmoor.

Anyway, it's a fascinating subject for-sure and fun to learn about, and to be clear, both of my tac light devices already have laser functions, so it's not about making any purchase decisions. I guess time alone will tell whether I'll ever find use for the laser feature in a home defense situation, but again. I greatly appreciate the feedback that you guys have provided.

All the best!

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
and I distinctly recall there being a faint laser dot in the center of that disco party show, and thinking "how the hell would you even see it?"

Did another officer have a Taser out? That sure sounds like what you describe by “faint”….

We disable the strobe function on the issues Streamlights. For just such an occasion.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We disable the strobe function on the issues Streamlights. For just such an occasion.

Same. You can disable the strobe function on Streamlights via a series of toggle presses. IIRC, it's something like "press the momentary toggle 10 times, then on the 10th press hold for 5 seconds until the light shuts off".

I hate inadvertently activating the strobe function while trying to do brief momentary pulses.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
and I distinctly recall there being a faint laser dot in the center of that disco party show, and thinking "how the hell would you even see it?"

Did another officer have a Taser out? That sure sounds like what you describe by “faint”….

We disable the strobe function on the issues Streamlights. For just such an occasion.

Not sure if this question was directed at me or someone else, and I don't know where the word "faint" entered the discussion, but in the Cops episode that I referenced earlier, there were no "tasers" deployed. The two responding officers were more than 25 feet away from the perp in question at all times.

jljones' comment was directed at P220 Smudge's post about the bodycam from the Applebee's shooting, which is the post about the faint laser and strobe that he quoted.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
and I distinctly recall there being a faint laser dot in the center of that disco party show, and thinking "how the hell would you even see it?"

Did another officer have a Taser out? That sure sounds like what you describe by “faint”….

We disable the strobe function on the issues Streamlights. For just such an occasion.

It was just the two officers. I wanna say the body-worn cam perspective was at about a 3:00 and the officer who fired was at the guy’s 6:00 before he made his move. I think the female officer at his 3:00 did get her taser out, but I seem to recall the officer who shot keeping his gun on the guy as she holstered her taser and the WML still strobing with the laser activated and centered in the light. I’ll see if I can find the video later today. My memory may be off, and it would still have value for the discussion.

Found it!! Got some details wrong, but not many! If it was faint, it was only because that bright-ass green laser kept getting shown with grass as the background. Definitely a laser on the officer's gun.

https://youtu.be/_ewRhm1e0KU

So sorry. My bad.

Thanx!

The best possible case for use of a laser over tac light? Buster Scruggs and his backwards shot using a mirror . . .

https://youtu.be/eldiAPx6erg

And a month later, an LEO shooting video with two officers clearly using WML's with green lasers on as well.

NWS, this dude gets lit up, hard. Original thread here, video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8BBXv-aZug

I posted on this topic in length a while back and I can't seem to find the thread. It may be old enough to be gone and it may be bad search-fu.

Here, in no particular order, are some probable explanations:

1) Cost

Essentially the entire weapon mounted light market for law enforcement is controlled by two companies (Streamlight and Surefire). Probably 95%+ of all handgun lights in law enforcement service come from one of these two companies. In general, a light/laser from either company costs close to twice what just a light does. That means maybe $125-$150 more for Streamlight and $200-$400 more for Surefire. When you layer in all of the other issues below, the cost/benefit simply is not there. When you take into account that you might be buying tens, hundreds, and thousands of them, it really adds up.

2) Reliability and Repeatability

There are a lot of junk lasers on the market that either do not hold up, do not hold zero, or both. Things like grip lasers and guide rod lasers introduce potential issues that something like an X400 or TLR-2 do not in that they use fragile components, their own tiny batteries, and questionable switching. Even lasers like the X400 and TLR-2 are not necessarily reliably repeatable given the way that they attach and the polymer rails on most duty handguns. When you consider that both of those lights must be removed to replace batteries, it is impractial to think that zero will be verified if the light is removed for a battery change and there is simply no guaranteeing that the light will not be removed between zero verifications. These are issues that may not be a big deal to the sample size of one using a light/laser or other laser device for home defense or concealed carry, but when you're talking about the lowest common denominator patrol officer (who is not a gun guy and might have 12 rounds in his 17 round magazine because his thumb got tired), the perceived liability for the agency in having their guys carrying a laser of questionable zero is a big one.

2) Training

For most people who are trained to shoot a pistol with traditional sights (and I would argue even optics), there is a learning curve to practicing with a laser. I have shot some with lasers and overall found them relatively unintuitive at longer (for a pistol) distances and unnecessary at very close ranges. Some of the other issues listed likely preclude a laser from being the primary sighting system in 99.99999% of uses, so it is diffiuclt to justify the time and money (ammunition) required to train a department to a saitsfactory level of proficiency and to maintain that proficiency. This also gets into some of the "switchology" issues with light/laser combos and a discussion of how the light/laser would be ideally configured to turn on. The majority of uses of lasers that I am aware of in law enforcement are for guys running shields (particularly on tactical teams), and those are likely the only people doing any regular training with them. They are also likely shooting much more regularly than line officers. Even the shield is a relatively niche use that I would argue is disappearing as optics become more popular and viewports get better.

Activation is another training issue. On the light/laser units, the user has to turn them on. Whether or not to do that becomes part of the calculus of the draw process. Laser devices that are co-activated with a light could mean turning on a light when only the laser is desirable or vice versa. Tape switches and grip type lasers are also options, but my experience has been largely that the time it take to train to proficiency with these items for most users outweighs the benefits and expense. Further, anything that requires altered grip pressure to activate is either prone to unintentional activation or changes the way the shooter grips the gun. Both are bad.

3) Holster Compatibility

The majority of the law enforcement holster market is owned by Safariland. Blackhawk, US Duty Gear, and Alien Gear all have small stakes. Other smaller companies have very minor presences. Safariland's most common fits of their most common holsters to not accommodate the most common light/laser combos (TLR-2 and X400). They do make fits for these lights with some guns, but they are just far less common. If you want a combo that they don't make (for example, a P320F with X400 in a level 3 ALS), you need to commit to a $25,000 initial order for them to make a mold for it. I think the Blackhawk T series stuff is laser compatible, but again, if you are a department looking to implement lasers, you then need to add the $150 per holster into your math, again for a very niche item, and if the holster isn't the same as the one you're using, budget time and ammo to transition people.

4) Laser Confusion (Multiple Officers)

One significant downside to lasers is that everybody can see them. If you and two of your buddies both draw down on somebody, it becomes very difficult to tell whose laser is whose. The old fashioned wisdom on this is to move your laser to identify it, but the reality is that they move a lot by virtue of how they work (small movements of the gun are big movements of the laser down range) and it is nearly certain that if one guy doesn't know which beam is his, the other(s) don't either. Then you just end up with a lot of dancing lasers and very poor shot accountability.

5) Laser Confusion (Multiple Weapon Systems)

Taser has integrated lasers into their devices for decades and nearly every police duty belt in the country has one. The same principles above apply to scenarios where firearms and a Taser(s) are both pointed at somebody. Taser is very heavily dependent on targeting area. Not to say that the laser on a handgun could not be turned off where both were being deployed, but depending on switching, this could mean having to disable the weapon light or switch modes depending on how the light/laser was configured.

6) Visibility, Practicality, Environment, Barriers

This is a big catch-all item that speaks to all of the ways that you can do everything right with a laser and still get a less desirable result.

Laser visibility in varied lighting conditions is an issue that will vary considerably between users. Essentially all lasers for handguns are red or green. I think green is widely considered to be easier to see, but it is also more expensive (see bullet point 1, above). Other times users may find that their eyes do not agree with one color or the other. I have some mild red color vision issues and I do not see red lasers well at all (I also prefer green in optics).

Lasers generally do not work well through anything that can reflect or refract them, like glass. They also may not work or not work as well through smoke or fog, in the rain, etc. This can render the laser totally useless. Mechanical offset is also a consideration. The lasers in the TLR-2 and X400 are on the bottom and this places them over an inch off of bore line. It is easy to find scenarios where the laser may be occluded. When you are relying on a sighting system that literally projects your point of aim down range to the target, anything that gets between the laser and the target can negate its usefulness.

Offest also factors into zeroing considerations, particularly if you are using a pistol with an optic. Now you have to reconcile your plan for zeroing the over bore optic with the under bore laser. This is a big policy and training consideration.

Conclusion

You may not agree with all of the points above or every detail under each item, but I think when you consider the totality of these issues along with the potential costs, it's hard to see mass-issue of lasers or light/laser combos to make a ton of sense. I think there are some niche uses to consider, but those are very limited and require careful consideration of the pros and cons before choosing to implement them.

Just to hit on some of OP's bullets, also:

1) Pricing between tac lights and tac light/laser combos didn't seem to differ much.

I disagree as explained above. Light/laser combos can double the price of a weapon light and likely require different holsters. This isn't a big deal if you're one guy deciding between a $135 TLR-1 HL or a $269 TLR-2 HL, but it if you are an administrator that needs to buy 50 of them, or 500, or whatever.

2) Lasers generally draw far less power from the device battery than a tac light.

This is true, but a laser is not useful in place of a light and a light is not useful in place of a laser.

3) Toggling between the two functions (when using a combo device), including strobe, is essentially instantaneous.

They can be "essentially instantaneous", but I think that experience shows us that complicating, multi-press switching schemes or alternate mode selection buttons are not very intuitive under stress. I have deprogrammed the strobe function from every single TLR-1S and TLR-1 HL that my agency has authorized somebody to use because under the relatively low stress of training, strobe mode often gets actiated unintentionally. I know that academically it is easy, but while trying to evaluate a room, keep track of your partners, maybe use the radio, stow a handheld light, etc., that skill degrades rapidly.

4) Perhaps most importantly of all, lasers allow for "instantaneous" point of aim without the use of (and time required for sighting) iron sights.

[i]They do if you know what to look for and have trained to it and the environment makes it possible to see the laser and so on and so forth. The time taken to activate the laser and potentially search for it is nearly certainly comparable at best to acquiring irons or a dot. Irons and dots, however, are always in relatively the same place. If you are in a big parking lot or down a long hallway, or your target is moving, acquiring the laser is entirely dependent on the beam hitting something that will allow you to see it. If the laser doesn't...you might search for it and that may take longer than just using a more traditional sighting system (dot or irons).

I was an early user of the guide rod laser. Difficult to fully explain, but I found that the lasers dot "jiggling" on the target was keeping me from focusing properly on the target. Could I have trained to the point where the Laser could have been effective? Maybe. But the juice did not seem worth the squeeze.

As the OP of this thread, all I can say is "Wow"! What an incredibly detailed, thorough and insightful posting by DaBigBR. I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to compile and post such a comprehensive summary of the various considerations involved in this topic.

Suffice to say, as nothing more than a gun enthusiast and run-of-the-mill consumer, I have little more of any substance to offer on the subject, and nothing whatsoever in rebuttal or dispute. However, given my own (personal and home defense) application, and my own limited experience with such devices, I will take a moment to share a few closing thoughts:

1) I can totally see how a $75-$100 price difference between light and laser/light combos, would constitute a deal-breaker for law enforcement agencies faced with purchasing hundreds or even of thousands of such devices. No doubt.

2) There is clearly a 'universe' of difference between the use of such devices by a homeowner such as me (for personal or home defense), and a police officer for law enforcement purposes (i.e., a lone shooter with a single device at home vs. multiple responders using multiple devices in public, etc., etc.).

3) Over the past year, I've purchased two SIG DA/SA p226 Legions, and given my isolated and limited application, I've evaluated multiple devices for both, including all of the mainstream models (e.g., Surefire, Streamlight, Crimson Trace, Viridian, etc.). In the end, with price not really being a driver for me, I opted for the Viridian X5L-Gen II combo. It has a long-lasting, integral battery that is easily re-charged via USB, without the need to remove the device, and at 500 lumens, it's tac light, is as bright as most others out there. In addition, it's green laser is also super bright and fully visible day or night, out to about 20-yards or so, even when deployed simultaneously WITH tac light. And lastly, I had a local machinist carefully and cosmetically widen one of the available (but unoccupied) attachment holes on the mounting hardware of both X5L's, to accommodate a second machine-threaded fastening screw, so that the device is attached to the rail very tightly and securely, twice (including a drop of medium blue loctite), thereby eliminating any meaningful drift from the initial zeroing.

4) And finally, with help in the way of product recommendations from others, I located a manufacturer of a really decent, easy On/Off, OWB Kydex holster, that fits both light/laser combo equipped firearms beautifully, and the holster incorporates a small internal magnet, that immediately actuates/deactuates the device upon drawing/holstering, which I find to be rather useful. And, when desired, that function can be easily bypassed by simply leaving the device Off, unless or until it is actuated manually, by a small, very touch sensitive, and perfectly positioned actuator button.

And so, I guess the bottom line is this . . .

For my own simpler, limited, relatively inexperienced, non law enforcement application, I am extremely happy with the configuration that I have settled on, but I thoroughly and completely understand the many valid and accurate points articulated above by DaBigBR, and why such an arrangement as mine, might not be ideal for the far more challenging law enforcement application.

Thanks again to all! It's been a great discussion. [/QUOTE]