I have nothing to add beyond rogue and jerry, except to say that as another non-LEO, even if I did have a laser, if I don’t see my front sight on it, I don’t think I’m shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by jcat:
I have nothing to add beyond rogue and jerry, except to say that as another non-LEO, even if I did have a laser, if I don’t see my front sight on it, I don’t think I’m shooting.

Totally. In the pure interests of safety, I can certainly appreciate that, and to be clear, I've yet to face a life or death situation personally (hope I never do), but if I ever am, I suspect the pure interests of safety at that level, are likely to be the least of my momentary concerns.

Not an LEO either, but I will say that I tried the Sig trigger guard laser on my P365XL and I hated the thing so much that after 1 trip to the range I sent it right back to Amazon and bought a Holosun instead.

Honestly all the doo dads out there can't help if you don't know the fundamentals, and if you don't train outside the norms.

example, know what you can do when things aren't correct. 99% of the time, what is explained in the video is what will happen. This is a good way to work with what you have rather than trying to implement some product that is being peddled as a resolution to all problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7WCf0zLoSw



TXPO

My first post. Retired 11c infantryman and MP SRT.

Over 20 years of military service, 6 as a light infantryman and 14 as an MP, I never used a light or visible laser on a weapon. White light gives away your position and destroys your night vision which equals mission failure. Lasers create cat like responses to the eyes and the operator focuses on the laser more than the situation, another failure. Lights and laser on weapons add weight, that is all they add.

In law enforcement, flashlights are necessary but are not attached to the weapon because pointing a flashlight with a loaded weapon attached to it violates one of the fundamental safety rules, never point a gun at something you do not wish to destroy. If you have family member and search your house at night with a weapon attached light, you might end up pointing the light and weapon at a family member, as one of many examples.

In jungle warfare school, NVGs were useless, red dots were useless and white light was forbidden. Fundamentals were everything!

As to why lights and lasers are popular…”marketing”

For a hunter in bear, wolf or big cat area, I can understand a light on weapon concept, but you are still going to loose your inherent night vision and create intense focus on the beam and not the peripheral which could also cost you your life.

Just my perception from experience.

It's funny...nobody thinks about a white light on a rifle being an issue, but on a pistol, it is commonly argued that a fundamental safety rule is violated.

That thinking does not take into account a couple things:

1) Any light can be used indirectly and still provide illumination. This may mean using the weapon light low (or high I suppose) to provide some baseboard or umbrella light. You can clear and search more safely with a weapon light than you realize. You almost never see people suggesting using a handheld with a carbine.

2) Multiple light sources are not mutually exclusive. I consider a handheld a must have and a weapon light good to have. A handheld can do everything a weapon light can do but a weapon light can not do everything a handheld can do a weapon light will do the things that it can do better by virtue of allowing two hands on the gun in a familiar position.

3) For most people working their way through a structure, there is far better light available via lights in rooms than a handheld or weapon light. Turn lights on where you can when it makes sense. Especially in your own house where you know where the switches are and how they work. The odds are that anyone in that room already knows you are there and knew you were coming.

Probably some other points I'm missing.

Turn on the lights! Well said, thanks for the further perspectives. The shotgun light is one of controversy that reflects an ops lack of several hours toting a shotgun. Shotgun barrels are heavy and adding a light looks cool until you have to carry and fire the damn thing for 10 or 12 hours…then, the light magically disappears.

Oh yea, the sure fire wrist light makes a lot of practical sense for both pistol, holster or low ready, and the carbine, slung with firing hand on weapon.

Also, a clip on hat light, low light, is what I use to move to cover, grab a weapon or navigate the house until a light switch is found. I use the cyclops. It is tiny and sits on the hat brim without looking to redneck. Low light, low red light has advantages but the marketing for the product does not exist.

I think it's safe to say that there are so many different applications and potential scenarios out there, that it's folly to think any one configuration is going to work for everyone.

I like my light/laser combo for my personal home defense application. Love it! I also have a very close (civilian) friend, with a large ranch in central Texas, who can't walk 20-yards from his front door at night without being acosted by everything from rattlers, scorpions and fire ants, to cougars, coyotes, wild pigs and illegal immigrants.

He literally shoots anywhere from 2-6 rogue hogs every single night (not an exaggeration), some close to the house, some at considerable distances, using either a SIG p220 Legion 10mm (with combo light/laser), or 6.5 Creedmoor (with night vision scope and laser that easily goes out to 500+ yards). And about once a week, in the middle of the night, he's using that same p220, on pesky armadillos that are burrowing under the house.

What's the point? Well, the first point is, why bother living in central Texas! But the second and more important point is, in none of those applications (with the possible exception of an armed migrant), is anyone shooting back at him! Big difference.

Yes Sir, there are applications that can be found favorable to the armed citizen. The question from the op was why police, and I added military, do not use lights/lasers. They do not, in my experience , because of safety and tactical disadvantages.

Hunting/camping is one application that I would attach a light to a weapon even if it limits my immediate night vision, as a potential threat might limit my life. With a family, I choose not to place a light on any of my weapons for safety. And if I lived in Texas on a ranch…I would at least have a good red light.

Thank you for adding your perspectives, they are valid.

The Surefire fore end lights have the dubious honor of being the best and worst option. Nothing matches them in ergos, simplicity, or durability, but almost everything else is lighter and a lot of it is brighter.

All of our work 870s have a Surefire fore end because they're assigned to pool cars and need to be ambidextrous and relatively snag resistant. They are stupid heavy, though.

If I was outfitting a single shotgun for myself, I'd probably look at an 18350 powered Cloud Defensive REIN or Modlite PDW350 on a Magpul fore end.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
All of our work 870s have a Surefire fore end because they're assigned to pool cars and need to be ambidextrous and relatively snag resistant. They are stupid heavy, though.

A perfect example of what I was trying to say earlier about different scenarios, different perspectives . . .

I'm being 100% Jokester here, and mind you, the famed 870 truly is a reliable workhorse, but coming from a lifelong reloading duck- and goose-hunters perspective (who often hunts from a boat and doesn't wanna swim in 35-degree water after spent shotshells!!), it's side-ejection design was a deal-breaker.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
The Surefire fore end lights have the dubious honor of being the best and worst option. Nothing matches them in ergos, simplicity, or durability, but almost everything else is lighter and a lot of it is brighter.

The new Surefire forends for the 870 can put out 1000 lumens. https://www.surefire.com/produ...-forend-weaponlight/

And the ~$100 Malkoff drop-in for the Surefire forends make a big difference in brightness on the old incandescent and early LED foreends that a lot of departments are still fielding. The Malkoffs put out ~450 lumens, which is plenty for shotgun purposes (and way better than the 65 lumens on the original incandescent Surefires, or the 100 lumens on the early LED Surefires...) Installation is as simple as unscrewing the factory light body and screwing in the Malkoff in its place.

https://malkoffdevices.com/pro...ight-to-fit-surefire

I believe ours are 600 lumen DSF870s. What they have in lumens they lack in candela. Just no real punch to them. Ok for what they are, though.

That's Scott Reitz in the SF ad on their site holding the 870. I've taken enough classes with Uncle Scotty to recognize him in an instant.

I have a SF forend on my 870. It's tough as shit but the covering for the tape switch has disintegrated and I need to send it back to SF for a repair. I put in the Malkoff LED upgrade and it's plenty of light for shotgun distances.

SF units are so expensive and if I had to set up a new gun with light, I'd give a long look to the Streamlight model. I'm not reading range reports that they failing but maybe they are and I'm just missing them. $600 for a shotgun light? Or how about I use my SF G3 with the Malkoff LED and and Elzetta clamp? Done that too and it works fine.

But yes, a 6 shot tube and the SF forend are very heavy after a while and even Uncle Scotty says he can't hold it out for a long time, especially if he's on target and trying to top off the mag. Eventually, we all tuck it under the arm.

I have a GREEN laser / light combo on my 300 blackout pistol that works well day or night. I hve it sighted in at 25 yards.

I have two laser/light combination modules. While the light is helpful, the laser is distracting. I'm not an operator so the kind of shooting I do isn't enhanced by the laser. I have the two I do for collector reasons.

I personally am not fond of the laser as I find it a bit difficult to pick up in daylight. Our department doesn't allow them regardless so the point is moot for me. I guess I'm old school, as I use a small tactical light in my other hand when needed.

All valid points however have any of you guys seen a Jack Russell chase a tac-light?


Laser > tac-light

quote:

Originally posted by Hildur:
All valid points however have any of you guys seen a Jack Russell chase a tac-light?

Laser > tac-light

Yup. I've had four different Jack Russell's over the past 25-years, and it started back in the 90s with standard green laser pointers that some teachers like to use in the classroom, but yeah, all four terriers have literally lost their minds over lasers. One of them moved-on to the more expensive animated pool skimmer and subterranean Malibu lights around the pool.