https://www.thetruthaboutguns....truth-israeli-carry/

This is an interesting article that reaffirmed things I knew about Israeli carry and corrected things I knew wrong, but the paragraph about the Israeli draw standard was both impressive and inspiring for postal match ideas.

Everyday Carry Chronicles: The Truth About ‘Israeli Carry’
By Ron Grobman -December 7, 2022\...
"So-called Israeli carry pre-dates Israel. Empty-chamber carry was adopted and popularized by legendary close quarters combat self-defense instructor W. E. Fairbairn. Fairbairn considered the relative frequency of administrative gun handling vs. actual gunfighting and declared chamberless carry to be the best method with the highest gun safety for people with limited training.

Fairbairn institutionalized the method for the Shanghai police in the early 1910s. His 1942 book Shooting to Live With the One-Hand Gun spread the gospel of empty chamber carry.

For most of the 20th century, “Israeli carry” was the standard for military, police and civilians. The state of Israel was created on May 14, 1948. Its fighters/civilians carried their handguns in the “traditional” manner, without one in the chamber.
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"As for the delay caused by carrying with an empty chamber, racking and then firing . . .

To qualify for duty, all Israeli military commandos and police units must meet an Israeli draw standard of 1.2 seconds for placing the first round on target at eight meters with a handgun. That’s starting with an un-chambered pistol, no round under the firing pin. I doubt that most chambered-carrying U.S. gun owners can match that at the gun range, much less in the field under pressure."

Historically, empty chamber carry has its benefits, under specific circumstances.

As noted, it was initially popularized by Fairbairn, when he was an instructor for the Shanghai Police in 1910. When dealing with an uneducated, semi-trained, barely industrialized 3rd world police force, that probably made sense. Running around with chambered modern handguns likely presented more of a danger to themselves than the bad guys.

To give you an idea of the quality of the Shanghai cops in the early 1900s, the Shanghai Police had to take the additional steps of drilling extra witness holes in the backs and sides of all their Colt 1908 magazines, so that during the daily roll call inspections of the officers each and every bullet could be seen from multiple angles, to ensure that the Shanghai cop hadn't gambled away or pawned off their ammunition. True story!




It also made sense for the Israelis, especially early on in the new Israeli state. They were likewise dealing with a mish-mash of people with varying levels of training. And more importantly, were dealing with a hodge-podge of different handguns with widely different manuals of arms. So it made sense to keep the chamber empty, both as a safety hedge, as well as to streamline the process for firing. Rather than having to train on each different model of handgun of the dozens available to the fledgling Israeli state and learn where the safeties/decockers were and how they functioned, you could simply carry any handgun with all the safety mechanisms disabled and the chamber empty. Then regardless of the type of handgun, you could draw, chamber a round, and pull the trigger, and know the gun would fire.

But with a modern military/police force, or a civilian concealed carrier, who has the opportunity to train with their handguns, and who are carrying a specific handgun model with which they can train to a level of competence in manipulating the controls, the benefits are greatly lessened.

quote:

While there are a few Israeli military units that carry pistols with a round chambered, Israelis continue to carry in real life without a round chambered. They use the support hand to manipulate the action and put a round in the chamber.

The biggest strike against "Israeli carry" is this assumption that you'll always have a free hand and the time/ability to chamber a round.

In a sudden defensive shooting, as the majority of law enforcement shootings are (for example), quite often your other hand is tied up with holding something, or making space/fending off the attacker, or similar. The need to rapidly draw and fire using only your strong hand is real.

In addition, defensive shootings are reactionary. You're reacting to an attacker's actions, someone who has already committed to and enacted their plan of action, and so you start the gunfight already behind the action curve and striving to catch up. Anything you can do to speed up your ability to get the first accurate hits on target is a good thing, whereas anything that slows you down just puts you further behind and further lessens your chance of winning.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
The biggest strike against "Israeli carry" is this assumption that you'll always have a free hand and the time/ability to chamber a round.

The other major disadvantage is seldom discussed, but it’s significant even if it’s ignored. That’s when we have both hands free but the maneuver is still fumbled. Years ago (and I posted it here) I conducted a series of tests drawing, chambering a round, and firing a shot. I got to be pretty fast—except for the times when my hand slipped off the slide or failed to get a round chambered for another reason. Those times things went much, much slower, especially if the fumbled attempt led to the round’s not being in a position to chamber.

In addition to everything RogueJSK mentioned, something else about the empty chamber carry is that in military situations it’s extremely rare for the user to be faced with drawing a handgun at speed to deal with an unexpected threat at close distance of the sort that US police regularly face. If a soldier must rely on a handgun, there’s usually plenty of advance warning and time to chamber a round then. Although empty chamber carry was the usual method during my Army career, I seriously doubt that anyone crawling into an NVA tunnel in Vietnam did so with an empty chamber. There was a time when officers went “over the top” with handgun in hand, but that was mostly with revolvers that could be fired with the pull of the trigger.

Fairbairn’s rule about carrying with an empty chamber was also, I believe, applicable to routine carry, and not during the SWAT-type operations when it was possible to prepare in advance before a possible deadly force encounter. The Shanghai Municipal Police had steel body armor available, but it wasn’t a routine article of wear either. As another interesting tidbit, the autoloading Colt pistols issued to their members had their safeties pinned in the off position because Fairbairn believed they were too likely to be engaged accidentally in a critical situation. But they wouldn’t have been needed for routine carry if the pistols’ chambers were empty.

I think that in the current political environment, Israeli Carry might be a good piece of legal advice. I base this on the ability for your lawyer to claim you had the time to rack the slide so therefore you had time to consider what you were doing. Maybe? Maybe it makes no difference.

Having said that my carry guns always have a chambered round. I want to draw and go without having the possibility of a panicked short stroke of the slide. Shouldn’t you eliminate as many possible failure points as possible in a pressurized and time delimited operation?

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My old man, was a been there, done that WWII Vet and 1911 user. He bought me (thanks, Dad) a Combat Commander for my 16th birthday. He told me and insisted I carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber. As he did during the war. So I learned to cock it on the draw like an SAA! Which took some doing, given the hammer style on a Commander. And I carried it this way all through my brief military career and for the first few years of my PD career. I only stopped when I went to an advanced school where I horrified all the instructors with my carry style. Cocked and locked now!

I learned in IDF to carry w/o one in the chamber. Qualifying wasn't that hard since i didn't know any other way - i learned to shoot in Israel. Once I broke my cherry in combat our CO's moved us off that concept - especially with rifles (although if you ever dropped a rifle, mishandled one, or had your safety off, it was a very serious offense). The reason it is done in Israel for recruits and new soldiers is due to the age of the new soldiers, the mandatory service, and the learning curve to carry. It cuts down on AD/NDs.
Once you are in combat, and you are proficient, it's up to each unit's CO to allow or not, or you can still make the request to whomever you report to/qualify with. Not common knowledge, but fact.

In Israel itself, carrying w/o a loaded chamber was normal until very recently. Both for handguns and for rifles - mags weren't even kept in rifles, although they could be attached (other than in the magwell).

A few years ago, when it became mandatory for all licensed carriers to carry (as terrorism increased) you could, again depending on your situation, experience, or CO (reserve or active duty), get permission to carry with a loaded chamber.

Many still choose to carry w/o one in, many combat veterans carry fully loaded. When I go, (I go pretty often, my mom and most of my family live there), I am licensed, and I do go to sign in, and I carry with a loaded chamber. I have all my paperwork already filed.

It's not the typical norm, but I don't like the empty chamber carry.

As to police not wearing body armor - the Border patrol, any active-duty units, Police in certain areas (like Jerusalem's Old City), active reserve units, and quick reaction/anti-terror units wear body armor. Even some civilians wear it.

Here is a real IDF carry pistol.

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So I learned to cock it on the draw like an SAA! Which took some doing, given the hammer style on a Commander.

I remedied that by installing a spur hammer on my Commander.

I went hammer down for some time, until I realized I had been advised to by a southpaw who had been shooting since before there was such a thing as an ambidextrous safety.
Then I changed to cocked and locked for all occasions... but the spur hammer is still there.

Maybe the Israelis had a use for chamber-empty carry, but I don't. Your handgun is essentially unloaded, and doesn't make a very good club.

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Originally posted by Abn556:
I think that in the current political environment, Israeli Carry might be a good piece of legal advice. I base this on the ability for your lawyer to claim you had the time to rack the slide so therefore you had time to consider what you were doing. Maybe? Maybe it makes no difference.

Having said that my carry guns always have a chambered round. I want to draw and go without having the possibility of a panicked short stroke of the slide. Shouldn’t you eliminate as many possible failure points as possible in a pressurized and time delimited operation?

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No.

Quit playing "Lawyer Ball" Carry whatever weapon system you carry as it is intended to be carried. If you're right, you're right. Train, train and train some more to ensure you have the best possible chance of being right.

quote:

Originally posted by Abn556:
I think that in the current political environment, Israeli Carry might be a good piece of legal advice. I base this on the ability for your lawyer to claim you had the time to rack the slide so therefore you had time to consider what you were doing. Maybe? Maybe it makes no difference.

I know you carry with round in chamber, but this line of thinking is totally ridiculous. When your life is on the line, you take that microsecond to think about the legal implication?

Fairbairn specifically calls for the safeties on a semi auto to be deactivated on page 14 of his book shootings to live. As Sigfreund says, Fairbairn viewed safeties a s a liability and recommended handling procedures IOT prevent accidental discharge

On page 18 of the book, Fairbairn states the pistol should never be carried with a round in the breech.

Note that Fairbairn is circa 1945 and that in the same book he advocated for a short barrel, large caliber revolver for concealed carry and he dismissed "automatics are unreliable". I wonder what he would have though of a Glock or SIG.

I’m not suggesting that an empty chamber would help one’s legal case, but the time to think about legal ramifications of a deadly force incident is long before the last microsecond—and we should.

Later on, when I learned more about the 1911, it dawned on me that the old man had a 1911, not an A1. And it had the so called Type 3 wide rounded hammer spur. Which made for easy cocking.

Historically, I can see why the did it that way. That they still do it to this day? I think it's ridiculous.

"I doubt that most chambered-carrying U.S. gun owners can match that at the gun range, much less in the field under pressure."

I doubt most 'chambered-carrying U.S. gun owners have gotten the training Israeli commandos have gotten. I wonder what their times would be like if they didn't have to train in the gun stroking?

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
Fairbairn specifically calls for the safeties on a semi auto to be deactivated on page 14 of his book shootings to live. As Sigfreund says, Fairbairn viewed safeties a s a liability and recommended handling procedures IOT prevent accidental discharge

On page 18 of the book, Fairbairn states the pistol should never be carried with a round in the breech.

Note that Fairbairn is circa 1945 and that in the same book he advocated for a short barrel, large caliber revolver for concealed carry and he dismissed "automatics are unreliable". I wonder what he would have though of a Glock or SIG.

In addition he advocates for the "Fitz" treatment of cutting off the front of the trigger guard of the revolver.

quote:

To qualify for duty, all Israeli military commandos and police units must meet an Israeli draw standard of 1.2 seconds for placing the first round on target at eight meters with a handgun. That’s starting with an un-chambered pistol, no round under the firing pin. I doubt that most chambered-carrying U.S. gun owners can match that at the gun range, much less in the field under pressure."

That's stupid fast. I'm happy to do 1.8 from my SLS/ALS duty holster, and that's without having to rack the slide. I honestly don't think my muscles move fast enough to do 1.2 with a slide rack.

I'd suggest that it might be an interesting exercise for a postal match stage, but on the other hand that's not a method of carry that I would ever willingly exercise, and that's not a drawstroke that I want to train.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
Fairbairn specifically calls for the safeties on a semi auto to be deactivated on page 14 of his book shootings to live. As Sigfreund says, Fairbairn viewed safeties a s a liability and recommended handling procedures IOT prevent accidental discharge

On page 18 of the book, Fairbairn states the pistol should never be carried with a round in the breech.

Right, collectors occasionally turn up a Shanghai Colt with the thumb safety blocked. A .380 will also have a spring set into the left side of the slide to stabilize the barrel for better feeding when you snatch at the slide. I think feedway jams are more common when manually racking the slide than when shooting and that is what that modification is meant to remedy.

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Originally posted by 92fstech:
That's stupid fast. ... that's not a drawstroke that I want to train.

Whenever I read about some bizarrely incredible demand that is placed on someone, elite warrior or other, I think of two things:
First is what are the conditions that make it possible? What holsters, guns, test conditions, and personnel selections are involved?

Plus, what happens when someone fails it? A senior member who’s been with a program for a few years walks into the test range with approved rig, the buzzer sounds with no warm-up, and his shot takes 1.3 seconds, then what? “All right Joe, you failed, and you’re off the team. Turn in your shit and get out of here. See finance for your last check, and this session doesn’t count because you failed.” Is that how it goes?

In regards to the personnel question, for example, individuals’ innate reaction times to a stimulus like a timer buzzer vary. So we have a person who is otherwise highly qualified for some special program in terms of experience, overall fitness, intelligence, and whatever else is actually desirable for the job, but because his nervous system doesn’t work quite as fast as someone else’s, he’s deemed unfit for the job, and why—? That 1.2 second thing is clearly an arbitrary standard having no relevance to the real world, but someone in charge of the program can do it, so it becomes the requirement for everyone.

And of course that’s fine if the pool of applicants is large enough that not only will there be enough applicants who are fit, intelligent, trained, and experienced enough for the program, but also have reactions fast enough to pass the test. Often, however, that’s not the case. I’m reminded of the original handgun proficiency test for the Federal Air Marshals. When I asked a FAM classmate about the test a couple of decades ago, his response was, “Yeah, no one could pass that.” Originally there were a few people who could pass the test and that was enough because the FAM program was very small and limited. After 9/11, though, and the program was expanded, then that highly demanding standard of handgun proficiency was …, um, evidently not considered to be vital any more.

Plus there’s the question of if a high level of training and practice is required just to meet that one highly artificial and irrelevant requirement, what could they have been doing instead that would have been better use of their time and resources? Again, if all they do is train, then perhaps it doesn’t matter, but not everyone has that luxury.

If you have reason to fire, draw, rack, and fire versus having a round already in the chamber is irrelevant. You’ve already made a decision that preparing to fire is imminent. Racking a round into the chamber just shaves time off the action of getting rounds on target. If having your piece snatched is the reason to engage in the practice of carrying condition 3, then I’d recommend folks get a good security holster instead.