Interestingly, there was a clip from the Sean Ryan Show posted yesterday where he is asking a former Delta operator about EDC and the subject of not carrying with one in the chamber came up.

Worth a listen from someone who has undoubtedly used a handgun in anger and knows that the seconds count, not to mention, as others have here, that you're assuming you'll be able to get a perfect draw, etc.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I carried semi-autos every working day for years. DA/SA, SA, and of course Glock. Never with an empty chamber. I can imagine someone in a panic situation short stroking the slide, the slide slipping as they attempt to chamber a round, gun becoming entangled with attire, one hand being occupied with something else important, etc. FWIW, I was involved in a very close range lethal force incident. Had I been carrying with an empty chamber, my support hand would not have been available to chamber a round. I'd have to agree with the Delta gentleman being interviewed about carrying with an empty chamber...

The first base camp i was at in Honduras instructed us to carry our 1911 empty chamber with 6 rounds in the mag,our M16 the same but we were given the lofty count of 10 rounds. The Arms room Sargent said screw that noise, when we left the front gate we were locked and loaded with enough ammunition for a sustained fight, he said he learned in 68 it was better to have than have not.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Interestingly, there was a clip from the Sean Ryan Show posted yesterday where he is asking a former Delta operator about EDC and the subject of not carrying with one in the chamber came up.

I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but is he talking about chamber empty carry while in the military, with a rifle as his primary weapon and a whole team of high speed Delta guys backing him up?

Or is he advocating that for individual self defense carry?

Two very different animals. In military service, handguns are often very much an afterthought to your primary weapon, and engagements are often at longer distances where you have more time to react, not to mention a unit of buddies around to assist you. Not so if you're a individual civilian/LEO who's carrying only a handgun as their sole means of self defense against unforeseen dangers that typically occur suddenly at close range while alone.

I still wouldn't do it in the military, but I can see how some of the drawbacks of "Israeli carry" could be mitigated by the usual circumstances surrounding military handgun use.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Interestingly, there was a clip from the Sean Ryan Show posted yesterday where he is asking a former Delta operator about EDC and the subject of not carrying with one in the chamber came up.

I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but is he talking about chamber empty carry while in the military, with a rifle as his primary weapon and a whole team of high speed Delta guys backing him up?

Or is he advocating that for individual self defense carry?

Two very different animals. In military service, handguns are often very much an afterthought to your primary weapon, and engagements are often at longer distances where you have more time to react, not to mention a unit of buddies around to assist you. Not so if you're a individual civilian/LEO who's carrying only a handgun as their sole means of self defense against unforeseen dangers that typically occur suddenly at close range while alone.

I still wouldn't do it in the military, but I can see how some of the drawbacks of "Israeli carry" could be mitigated by the usual circumstances surrounding military handgun use.

No, he's not advocating it at all. I didn't do a good job of clearly indicating that in my summary.

The question came up in the context of "what do you tell new gun people who come to you as students and don't want to carry one in the chamber?" His reply was "dead man's gun".

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I have the video saved, but couldn't find the 20 minutes yesterday to sit through it.

Thank you for posting the video, well worth watching.

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Originally posted by Abn556:
I think that in the current political environment, Israeli Carry might be a good piece of legal advice. I base this on the ability for your lawyer to claim you had the time to rack the slide so therefore you had time to consider what you were doing. Maybe? Maybe it makes no difference.
+

Here's the problem with this though process-

If you want to base this on "time it takes to consider..." and lawyers-
Why not carry an empty gun and the ammunition in another pocket?
That should take more time than racking the slide, therefore having more time to consider.

A step further, and not have the ammunition on your person...


I never grasped the concept of not having a round chambered. Still can't wrap my head around it.

'92 or so another Marine and I were able to shoot with a few Israeli Military types. Damn good people to shoot with! That's about all we did, because their English was limited, and our ability to habla the Hebrew was/is non existent. We were all shooting BHP's. The two of us were averaging being just > < that much faster scoring hits out of the holster. Don't get me wrong, they were some phenomenonal gunslingers and we learned a ton from them. But it was to the point that we were getting a little frustrated with their methods, and the loss in translation.
I didn't get it then, and hasn't changed now.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
The two of us were averaging being just > < that much faster scoring hits out of the holster.

End of story.

These discussions inevitably include someone’s mentioning how fast a skilled and practiced shooter can be despite having to chamber a round as part of the process before firing a shot. What that argument ignores is that it doesn’t matter if someone is so fast that he can chamber a round, empty the magazine, reload twice, and enjoy a smoke break before my gun clears the holster: He would still be faster if he didn’t have to chamber a round first. It’s impossible to be faster doing something with an extra step than doing the same thing, but without the extra step.

A very good friend of mine worked for +20 years in a large Federal LE agency.

We went to the Academy together. We were issued Sig Sauer's back then. Him: P228. Me: P226.

He pulled me aside one range day and informed me that he was never going to carry his pistol with a round in the chamber.

He had been an Army officer for years prior to that and had graduated from a well known military college.

He retired some years ago. Never had an incident and would always tell me that he would have the time to load a round into the chamber if he needed it.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
The two of us were averaging being just > < that much faster scoring hits out of the holster.

End of story.

These discussions inevitably include someone’s mentioning how fast a skilled and practiced shooter can be despite having to chamber a round as part of the process before firing a shot. What that argument ignores is that it doesn’t matter if someone is so fast that he can chamber a round, empty the magazine, reload twice, and enjoy a smoke break before my gun clears the holster: He would still be faster if he didn’t have to chamber a round first. It’s impossible to be faster doing something with an extra step than doing the same thing, but without the extra step.

Exactly!
They would have been > < that much faster out of the holster than us!
It was my only time doing any shooting with their "more serious" units. Again, the language barrier sucked, and always wanted to sit down with those gents and ask them the "why" about a lot of things.

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Originally posted by CPD SIG:
Again, the language barrier sucked, and always wanted to sit down with those gents and ask them the "why" about a lot of things.

When it comes to 'Israeli carry', I have a sneaking suspicion the answer to "Why?" would be "Because we've always done it that way..."

The typical bane of tactical innovation in all training and policy circles.

I'll carry my way and the "experts" can carry their way.....

18Z50..

Interesting mention of William Fairbairn. I first heard about him in regard to knife fighting. A clip from his Wikipedia page:

quote:

William E. Fairbairn

Lieutenant-Colonel William Ewart Fairbairn (/ˈfɛərbɛərn/; 28 February 1885 – 20 June 1960) was a British Royal Marine and police officer. He developed hand-to-hand combat methods for the Shanghai Police during the interwar period, as well as for the allied special forces during World War II. He created his own fighting system known as Defendu. Notably, this included innovative pistol shooting techniques and the development of the Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife.

The television series Secrets of War suggested him as a possible inspiration for Q Branch in the James Bond series.[

Israeli civilians can't carry pistols.
Most IDF don't even train with a pistol mush less get issued one.

There are two well-researched books about Fairbairn and Eric Sykes that go into much detail about their lives and careers. I finished the first some time ago and it prompted me to get the second that I’m reading now.

Peter Robins; Paul R. Child, ed., Gentleman & Warrior: The Legend of W. E. Fairbairn, The Shanghai Years (Harlow, Essex, England: CQB Publications, 2005)

Paul R. Child, No Queensbury Rules: Fairbairn & Sykes: Fathers of Modern Close Combat 1940 ~ 1942 (Harlow, Essex, England: CQB Publications, 2017)

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
Israeli civilians can't carry pistols.

Not true. Israeli civilians can apply for a private weapons permit to authorize them to carry a handgun. It's the same permit required to simply purchase and own a handgun, so effectively, any Israeli civilians that can legally own a handgun are allowed to carry it.

In order to qualify, a civilian must demonstrate completed training and have a clear medical and criminal record, and either be former military/police of a certain rank or length of service, or live or work in higher risk areas of the country including the West Bank or one of the communities near the Green Line, or else meet occupational eligibility in a job such as security guard, farmer, tour guide, veterinarian, hunter, exterminator, firefighter, shooting instructor, rescue volunteer, explosive transporter, etc.

See the Ministry of Public Security website at https://www.gov.il/en/departme...icensing-information for details and eligibility requirements.

According to this news article, there were about 150,000 active permits in Israel in 2021, with approximately 15,000-20,000 applicants each year. https://www.timesofisrael.com/...er-spate-of-attacks/

So while it's not as easy to obtain an Israeli carry permit as it is in many of the US states, it's still possible. That'd be like saying "California residents can't carry pistols".

(California likewise has about 150k active carry permits, but Israel has a quarter of California's population, so effectively 4x as many Israelis per capita have carry permits than Californians.)

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
Israeli civilians can't carry pistols.

Not true. Israeli civilians can apply for a private weapons permit to authorize them to carry a handgun. It's the same permit required to simply purchase and own a handgun, so effectively, any Israeli civilians that can legally own a handgun are allowed to carry it.
...

Although I'd like to, I haven't visited Israel, but I once worked for a large US based company with over 100k employees, that had sites throughout the world, including one in Israel. I had a conversation with an employee that had worked in our Israel site for a few years, and he told me that Israeli employees would show up at work with their firearms at the start of their shift, proceed to check them into locked boxes at Security, and at the end of shift Security would return them.

Of course the same company would not allow their US employees to bring their firearms onsite. I'm sure they were complying with Israeli law and in recognizing the realities and practicalities of life there... but it still ticked me off.