quote:

Originally posted by Sheepdogged:
1. All things being equal, a heavier bullet will be more accurate (so statistically, though not a huge difference, on average, .45 ACP is more accurate than 9mm or even .40 S&W.

3. All things being equal, more velocity will yield greater accuracy, but not as much as adding mass.

quote:

Originally posted by jdt77:
Are they going to use a red dot and If so, any idea which one?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I would think .357SIG is basically on life support. People talk about .40 but there are bajillions of .40 handguns out there and .357SIG was always just this side of a niche cartridge at best.
*****
Not quite on life support yet, but likely circling the drain. There are still a number of larger LE agencies using .357 SIG, but many users (including some of the largest agencies) are switching to 9mm, and I expect that trend to continue.

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:
Hello Kids, Lately, I've been amusing myself by reading all of the 'back & forth' Forum Posts regarding the demise of the .357 SIG cartridge.

Unless you're a shooter who plans on shooting upwards of 1,000 rds per year ...

Best regards, dpast32

quote:

Originally posted by amd6547:
The 9mm cult is getting annoying

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:
Hello Kids, Lately, I've been amusing myself by reading all of the 'back & forth' Forum Posts regarding the demise of the .357 SIG cartridge. Well, firstly, let me state for the record that I personally love it, & feel it to be an extremely efficient medium caliber round.

However, what a great many folks don't consider into the equation is the HUGE difference between choosing a duty caliber for Law Enforcement use, & an average civilian's use of the same.

Pretty much ALL of the recent controversy about USSS & other large USG Agencies going to the "Glock / 9mm Package" is primarily related to a large Agencies / Dept.'s needs, NOT those of an individual shooter. The Glock 9mm 'Package' being chosen has everything to do with these groups long term concerns, which primarily equate to monetary issues. I recently tendered a few related Post on another Forum, & pretty much explained the whole issue. Suffice to say, that the PRIMARY reasons for the big changeover is / are as follows;

1) The Bureau has been experiencing an increasing problem with the MARKSMANSHIP of it's new recruits, & also with a percentage of it's on duty personnel also. They, the FBI needed to find a 'sufficiently effective', yet controllable duty caliber cartridge that would [ hopefully ] fill their needs. Enhanced weapon controllability equates into less training / range time, along with higher qualification scores.

2) 'FOLLOW THE MONEY' !! ALL of our Federal Government is dependent upon their budget, plain & simple. The 9mms ammunition is fairly less expensive than ANY of the comparative duty quality calibers, due primarily from being produced in much greater quantities, & also requiring less material in it's manufacture.

2-A) Also money related is the combination of the Glock product being significantly less expensive, & it's apparent ability to 'hold up better in the long run', which of course equates into less money spent on weapons maintenance & parts replacement. The 9mm almost always comes with a higher magazine capacity, which of course is another 'selling point'. Make no mistake as to the Bureau's initial position going into the 9mm's 'tentative adoption' process. If you may recall, the FBI's FTU went all in producing their 'Report' explaining the reasoning behind the switch from .40 to 9mm. [ And, they had to present it without mentioning that a great many of their SA's were having much difficulty in hitting anything with their .40 caliber Glock 22 / 23's. ] Please don't get me wrong, as some Agents could, & can efficiently handle their .40's, but it did appear to the Bureau's leadership that it was indeed an undeniable problem.

If you read the FTU's Report, you may come to the conclusion I have, & that was that the big changeover wasn't due primarily to the 'new, enhanced 9mm loadings', but rather an assortment of other concerns which the FBI, & the Federal Law Enforcement community as a whole had to address.

SO, if you as an individual shooter choose to use a .357 Sig, by all means do so ! ANYTHING the 9mm can do the SIG even better. Sorry if you don't agree with that statement, but facts are facts. It operates at higher velocity, & it feeds with greater reliability.

YES, it does possess somewhat of muzzle blast, as compared to the 9mm, & does usually cost you 2 - 3 rounds of magazine capacity. IF that's a problem for you, just use a Mac Gar 15 Rd magazine as I do in both my P226 & P229 .357's. They do have an enlarged baseplate, both measuring about 5/8". For deep concealment purposes, it could be a drawback, but a P226 / P229 isn't really a deep concealment type of weapon ? With them installed, I'm carrying a full 16 rds of either .357 Sig or .40 S&W, depending of course on which barrel is in the weapon.

If you're someone who is relatively comfortable shooting calibers over & above the 9x19+P / +P+, the 'unloved by the masses' .357 Sig should truly serve you well. You are not constrained by the same regulations that rule the large Agencies & Departments. For the 'average shooter' your .357 Sig should hold up just fine, provided you follow the factory recommended maintenance schedules. [ Especially concerning recoil spring replacement. ]

Unless you're a shooter who plans on shooting upwards of 1,000 rds per year, then you just might run into 'wear & tear' concerns, thereby requiring your pistol to undergo factory inspection / maintenance. Most of these 'caliber debates' will to go & on forever. We all have opinions. One must always keep in mind the reasoning as to why a particular decision is being made. The right choice[s] for a large group of people, may in actuality not the best choice for you as an individual ?

And, just as a closing remark, imagine if the U.S. Government decided to authorize additional, increased funding to 'fully' train their Law Enforcement personnel, as opposed to training them 'adequately', & within accepted standards ? I know it will never happen, but just imagine if all of our L.E. we're issued .357 Sig pistols, [ Either Glock 31C or Sig P226 / P229 ] & FULLY trained in their use ? Not that it would ever be instituted, but would it be interesting to see the results of such a policy ? OK Guys, that's my .02 cents worth towards the .357 SIG chamber's place in the overall scheme of things.

Best regards, dpast32

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:
Hello Kids, Lately, I've been amusing myself by reading all of the 'back & forth' Forum Posts regarding the demise of the .357 SIG cartridge.

Unless you're a shooter who plans on shooting upwards of 1,000 rds per year ...

Best regards, dpast32

…


I agree.
Heartily.
The 357 Sig is still the Hammer of Thor®.

But, who doesn't shoot > 1K of rounds per year?

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:
Hello Kids, Lately, I've been amusing myself by reading all of the 'back & forth' Forum Posts regarding the demise of the .357 SIG cartridge. Well, firstly, let me state for the record that I personally love it, & feel it to be an extremely efficient medium caliber round.

However, what a great many folks don't consider into the equation is the HUGE difference between choosing a duty caliber for Law Enforcement use, & an average civilian's use of the same.

Pretty much ALL of the recent controversy about USSS & other large USG Agencies going to the "Glock / 9mm Package" is primarily related to a large Agencies / Dept.'s needs, NOT those of an individual shooter. The Glock 9mm 'Package' being chosen has everything to do with these groups long term concerns, which primarily equate to monetary issues. I recently tendered a few related Post on another Forum, & pretty much explained the whole issue. Suffice to say, that the PRIMARY reasons for the big changeover is / are as follows;

1) The Bureau has been experiencing an increasing problem with the MARKSMANSHIP of it's new recruits, & also with a percentage of it's on duty personnel also. They, the FBI needed to find a 'sufficiently effective', yet controllable duty caliber cartridge that would [ hopefully ] fill their needs. Enhanced weapon controllability equates into less training / range time, along with higher qualification scores.

2) 'FOLLOW THE MONEY' !! ALL of our Federal Government is dependent upon their budget, plain & simple. The 9mms ammunition is fairly less expensive than ANY of the comparative duty quality calibers, due primarily from being produced in much greater quantities, & also requiring less material in it's manufacture.

2-A) Also money related is the combination of the Glock product being significantly less expensive, & it's apparent ability to 'hold up better in the long run', which of course equates into less money spent on weapons maintenance & parts replacement. The 9mm almost always comes with a higher magazine capacity, which of course is another 'selling point'. Make no mistake as to the Bureau's initial position going into the 9mm's 'tentative adoption' process. If you may recall, the FBI's FTU went all in producing their 'Report' explaining the reasoning behind the switch from .40 to 9mm. [ And, they had to present it without mentioning that a great many of their SA's were having much difficulty in hitting anything with their .40 caliber Glock 22 / 23's. ] Please don't get me wrong, as some Agents could, & can efficiently handle their .40's, but it did appear to the Bureau's leadership that it was indeed an undeniable problem.

If you read the FTU's Report, you may come to the conclusion I have, & that was that the big changeover wasn't due primarily to the 'new, enhanced 9mm loadings', but rather an assortment of other concerns which the FBI, & the Federal Law Enforcement community as a whole had to address.

SO, if you as an individual shooter choose to use a .357 Sig, by all means do so ! ANYTHING the 9mm can do the SIG even better. Sorry if you don't agree with that statement, but facts are facts. It operates at higher velocity, & it feeds with greater reliability.

YES, it does possess somewhat of muzzle blast, as compared to the 9mm, & does usually cost you 2 - 3 rounds of magazine capacity. IF that's a problem for you, just use a Mac Gar 15 Rd magazine as I do in both my P226 & P229 .357's. They do have an enlarged baseplate, both measuring about 5/8". For deep concealment purposes, it could be a drawback, but a P226 / P229 isn't really a deep concealment type of weapon ? With them installed, I'm carrying a full 16 rds of either .357 Sig or .40 S&W, depending of course on which barrel is in the weapon.

If you're someone who is relatively comfortable shooting calibers over & above the 9x19+P / +P+, the 'unloved by the masses' .357 Sig should truly serve you well. You are not constrained by the same regulations that rule the large Agencies & Departments. For the 'average shooter' your .357 Sig should hold up just fine, provided you follow the factory recommended maintenance schedules. [ Especially concerning recoil spring replacement. ]

Unless you're a shooter who plans on shooting upwards of 1,000 rds per year, then you just might run into 'wear & tear' concerns, thereby requiring your pistol to undergo factory inspection / maintenance. Most of these 'caliber debates' will to go & on forever. We all have opinions. One must always keep in mind the reasoning as to why a particular decision is being made. The right choice[s] for a large group of people, may in actuality not the best choice for you as an individual ?

And, just as a closing remark, imagine if the U.S. Government decided to authorize additional, increased funding to 'fully' train their Law Enforcement personnel, as opposed to training them 'adequately', & within accepted standards ? I know it will never happen, but just imagine if all of our L.E. we're issued .357 Sig pistols, [ Either Glock 31C or Sig P226 / P229 ] & FULLY trained in their use ? Not that it would ever be instituted, but would it be interesting to see the results of such a policy ? OK Guys, that's my .02 cents worth towards the .357 SIG chamber's place in the overall scheme of things.

Best regards, dpast32

What is the basis for your opinions? Everyone has an opinion but all opinions are not equal.

Do you have any law-enforcement the military experience? Have you ever run a firearms training program? Have you ever shot anybody with a handgun? Have you ever had people who work for you or people you trained shoot someone with a handgun ?

Have you ever shot on the clock? Regardless of skill level a shooter will be faster With a lighter recoiling caliber. In the real world there is always a clock, it just takes the form of someone else trying to kill you before you kill them instead of a little electronica box with the buzzer.

You talk about imagining the government “fully training” LE officers and then talk about 1000 rounds a year like it was anything other than the absolute minimum to maintain even the most basic level of skill with a pistol.

The “fully trained” people you’re talking about shoot 10 to 20,000 rounds a year or more. Fact is as much as I like guns and shooting, it is primarily a people job and firearms proficiency it’s just one of several perishable skills competing for limited training time. The man hours for training cost more than the guns or ammunition.

The US Secret Service is one of the smaller federal law-enforcement agencies with just a few thousand agents and uniformed officers. Let’s look at a bigger agency.

CBP, including the US border patrol is the largest Federal law-enforcement agency and the largest LE agency in North America. They have a proximately 45,000 officers and agents. On average they fire about 1000 rounds per year. That is 45 million rounds per year just to maintain proficiency. That does not include training for new agents in the Academy which requires between 2000 and 4000 rounds for training. It also does not include specialized units which fire significantly more than 1000 rounds per year.

For simplicity sake say each of those CBP agents will be issued a Glock 19 and 4 15 round magazines. That is a capability of caring 61 rounds for duty carry. That’s 2,745,000 rounds just for carry.

Now add another 15,000 agents for ICE. Say 6000 for US Secret Service. A few thousand more for the federal air marshal service. And the US Coast Guard.

Now add all the department of justice agencies including FBI, DEA, ATF, the US marshals,etc.

But wait there’s more. The US state department diplomatic security service, the US Capitol police, US Park service and US forest service rangers, US BLM rangers, the U.S. Postal Inspectors, etc etc etc.

When you were talking about tens of thousands of guns and hundreds of millions of rounds small differences in service life, maintenance intervals, and cost of ammunition make a big difference.

I know it’s fun for you to imply that the real reason the FBI is switching to 9 mm is that it’s full of women and accountants who can’t shoot a “real man’s gun. “ Truth is anything that lets agents be quicker and more accurate increases survivability as does increased capacity. In a fight bullets are opportunities and turning down an opportunity to save your life or the life of an innocent third-party is just foolish.

As for the 357 round, I’ve seen it used on both people and dogs. It works fine but there’s nothing magic about it.

It is however hard on guns. The SIG P226/229/229 and the HK USP compact are the only guns that have been able to stand up to any real quantity of 357SIG. Both the Smith and Wesson M&P and the Glock 31/32/33 have had significant durability issues in LE use.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Sheepdogged, is that study available for us to read?

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:

1) The Bureau has been experiencing an increasing problem with the MARKSMANSHIP of it's new recruits, & also with a percentage of it's on duty personnel also. They, the FBI needed to find a 'sufficiently effective', yet controllable duty caliber cartridge that would [ hopefully ] fill their needs. Enhanced weapon controllability equates into less training / range time, along with higher qualification scores.

quote:

Originally posted by dpast32:
Yes, my prior comments are merely my opinion. However, my 'opinions' have been formed over many years of studying the ever changing face of Law Enforcement ballistics, & related subjects. I just find it somewhat humorous that simply due to the implementation of what in all respects does appear to be an very effective projectile, the Federal / ATK HST we have collectively placed all our eggs into one basket, so to speak. [ Also, to a somewhat lesser degree, the Speer / ATK GDHP. ] Honestly, what bothers me the most is the Agencies, Departments, etc, not insisting on better performance upon the part of their respective Recruits. IMHO, an academy's firearms range is not the place for the Firearms Instructors facilitating their students to just simply 'shooting the minimum', if of course that's all they proved capable of ? And, if you have followed all the goings on within the last 10 or so years, you too might agree that the overall change to 9mm within the L.E. community was heading out way. As I indicated in my previous Post, I too grudging agree that the overall switch to the 9mms Glock Series may not be all that bad. Without getting into an forensic ballistics debate, I'm sure we all agree that any shot to the vital[s] area is a good thing, where a miss with a larger, yet more effective caliber will not assist anyone who's under fire. My Post was to highlight the fact that large L.E. groups have vastly different requirements from their duty weapons, as opposed to the average civilian shooter, ccw individual. From what I've been able to discern over my 31+ years in Law Enforcement, a great many Officers are simply not 'gun people', as unfortunate as it is. Some had all they could do to Qualify in the Academy. [ And we were not alone in that respect. ] My last duty pistol upon retirement was a Sig P226-R/DAK in .40, with 180 GDHP's, among others. I too have watched, & studied the transition of duty weapons & loading within the greater L.E. community. When I started in early 1980 we were issued S&W M-10's with WW 95 grain STHP+P. Boy, how things have changed ! So, to briefly answer your question as to my qualifications, I'm really nobody special at all. Other than my over 30 years in Law Enforcement, & my NRA Certifications of; Range Safety Officer, Rifle, Shotgun, & Pistol Instructor, along with 'Home Firearms Safety' & 'Personal Protection In The Home' Instructor. Sorry if some folks didn't care for my take on the .357 Sig, but IMHO, if you truly like the 9x19, than how can you not like it with an additional dose of velocity ? And, in closing, if you do prefer the '9', & more importantly are proficient with it, than by all means stuck with it. As for me, I truly love my .357 Sig's & are you ready for it, my .45 GAP Glock 38 !! THANKS Guys & Take Care,

Best, dpast32 / dpast32@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by Sheepdogged:
There is a logical fallacy called "post hoc ergo propter hoc", and the Latin roughly translates in English as "after that therefore because of that."