Austin228,
Just to clarify I didn’t target that “No shit Sherlock” at you but at the writer of that article.

I've got pistols with and without the red dots. My carry guns, that I depend on to protect my life? Bare assed, and they'll stay that way.

I can shoot better at long distance with a red dot, but a self defense situation would be up close and personal, and I don't want to be hunting a red dot when that split second may mean life or death.

I have shot both on pistols, and don't currently own any RDS pistols. I find them very helpful on rifles, even short range PCCs.

As for the pistol, I have shot both .22 target, and a Glock 21 competition gun. I did not like the RDS on the .22 target guy, and found that I wasn't as fast or accurate with the dot. On the big Glock, with a big 10 MOA dot that was super easy to pick up when bring the pistol up to ready. Faster for me than iron, even though I had zero rounds through this gun.

Furthermore, my eyesight kind of sucks at the distance a front sight is from my eyes. I can drive without glasses, but can't read without them. Thus, I don't have permanent corrective lenses, only reading glasses, which I am unlikely to be wearing when in a defensive pistol solution. This isn't a big deal in daylight, but it matters when I am trying to pick up a night sight (even brand new) in the dark during the draw.

As for the rifle, my eyesight is such that I can either see iron sights with glasses, or the target I wish to hit, but not both. I can, however, clearly pick up even a 2 MOA dot in an RDS unaided. That way, I have a clear view of my target (and what is beyond it) and a bright, obvious sight picture.

So, all this to say, I agree that an RDS is not a magical solution for pistol shooting, but it may have utility in specific circumstances.

I am considering one for my bedside gun, as that will likely be employed in less than ideal lighting conditions.

Proficient in irons before learning red dot
vs.
Proficient in red dot before learning irons

To me, it seems the former is better place to be, for two reasons. First, prima facie, it seems easier to go from irons to red dot than vice versa. Second, either way, you need to know irons, but you don't need to know red dot.

Moreover, you can stay in the former place indefinitely and be just fine, but Para's original point is well taken in that many/most probably don't even need to learn to use the red dot.

quote:

Furthermore, my eyesight kind of sucks at the distance a front sight is from my eyes. I can drive without glasses, but can't read without them. Thus, I don't have permanent corrective lenses, only reading glasses, which I am unlikely to be wearing when in a defensive pistol solution.

Artie-
I am in a similar situation sight wise. I noticed during qualifications I was slowing down trying to focus on that front sight and when I wore readers the target was getting too blurry for my comfort. The answer was progressive lenses. Even though the top half is clear (no prescription for distance) using different parts of the lense allows me to get a great sight picture. When using the red dot (RMR on G17/DPP on P320) as you don't focus on the dot I dont seem to need the close up magnification.

I remember plain black iron sights on pistols, dot over dot, three dot and then high-def front sight and blacked out rear sight. I remember the point should shooting craze of the 90s that eventually developed into the cult following of Fairbain and Rex Applegate (this technique/training almost cost me my life in a gunfight).

Times change, technology changes. I remember the same arguments against red dots on M4 rifles and now iron sights are the minority.

I was an RDS holdout on pistols, but the front sight has gotten so blurry I'm using an RDS on my pistol. I absolutely love having a dot on my pistol. The most important thing for all of you to remember is RDS is an option, you don't have to use one.

Good post!

A few videos as food for thought regarding the use of iron sights and target-focused shooting from respected industry folks:

I don’t think the use of target focus shooting is in question.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I don’t think the use of target focus shooting is in question.

Correct.

I've had a number of carry guns with the red dots and I am selling my last one, one of two Shadow Systems CR920s I have carried, this one with a Holosun, tomorrow.

I can shoot it and the others I've had, "okay," but my whole shooting life from the Army to Law Enforcement to various shooting sports over at least 45 years (maybe a bit more) has included finding that front sight quickly and focusing on it.

My shooting now is just some range time to be certain I still maintain some proficiency and, sometimes just for fun.

At closer distances, I find the front sight faster than the dot, IMO. Never "clocked" my times, but I can tell how I am doing and I know which one is faster for me.

So... iron sights for me.

Bob

From dryfiring, I have found that a RDS greatly improved my ability to accurately aim the pistol.

Typically I might dry fire on a spot 15' away. When I added RDS, I found that my point of aim was wobbling in about a 4" circle, when I thought I was dead on target. My muscles and brain could simply not hold the pistol in a precise manner. After a few 20 minute sessions of dry firing, I was able to hold the green dot in a very small circle, perhaps 1" at 15 feet. I am certain this also helped my iron sighting ability as well.

If someone wanted to be excellent with open sights, I suggest training part of the time with a red dot to improve their accuracy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: c1steve,

And here I was thinking there must be something wrong with me for not wanting a red dot on my guns. Thanks for posting that video.
Rod

Well heck they just delivered my Micro Red Dot from PSA, guess I should send it back

My limited comparison was the DCJS qualification with iron and FBI qualification with rds. Aware that such criteria may not represent real life. Both have similar distances. However FBI requires draw from concealment. Without question the rds outperformed irons.

I think there is nothing wrong with owning a red dot pistol in fact I think many here would benefit from owning several. As for me personally I just won't Carry one for protection... even though the two I own also I can use the iron sights on them too. I'm pretty sure if I ever really needed to use my carry pistol there's a good chance I won't even be using the iron sights. At least that's what I learned in the two force on force classes I took at the Sig Academy.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
... but I am telling you that for the way almost all of us will employ the defensive handgun (that is to say, inside of 10 yards), the RDS offers you no advantage and IMO, gets in your way and compromises you as a shooter.

I concur, and would even go a step beyond and say that traditional sights are unnecessary for a competent pistol shooter who does even a small amount of regular training.

I am instructor at my agency, and they are pushing us to adopt RDS on the pistols. I am not lining up for the change as the older I get the less inclined I am to change for the sake of change, and that is all this is.

When I shoot our basic pistol qual course, I do not use sights until I get to the 15 yard line, and then, its only the front sight. I am confident doing that because I have done enough training that my grip, draw, and trigger press are consistent enough that I don't need the sights. Inside of 15 years the rounds land where I look with enough accuracy that I don't need the sights.

I was stressing this consistency to a class several years ago and one of the hotheads called BS and claimed that the sights were required to pass the test... So i removed the sights from my county Glock and shot the course and passed easily.

I do like my Delta Point on my shotgun... I see it as a big improvement, especially at speed, when hitting man-sized targets at 50 yards and beyond with slugs.

But on a pistol? Nah. You can keep it. I see a bunch of Deputies come through with a RDS on something like a P365 and I just find it silly.

I took two classes this past Sept and Nov and in both, RDS prevailed. 14/17 in the first class and 12/16 in the second.

At distance the RDS pistols smoked us non-RDS shooters. No question about it. This is short stuff from 15 to 25 yards, moving targets, 40 yard obstacle course and even at distance from 150 to 150 yds.

My non-RDS pistol was fine but not as fast however at typical SD distances, RDS pistols didn't show an advantage.

On a knife attack system from 21 feet coming at you at speed, RDS was useless. Step back drills was useless too. Time and distance is where they were really good.

But looking at all the RDS guns, the form factor changed quite a bit. An undermount light, such as a SF or TLR7A, along with an RDS might be a formidable package but it's not made for easy concealment. It moved most mid-sized guns into the duty gun category. Compact 9s were now mid sized.

I like them and they are pretty good but I'm not switching over. Irons with night sights and a neon insert work fine.

Some of the instructors who are current LEO with an agency switching to RDS said it will take 10k rounds to switch over and master the RDS. Some thought it might be more.

Ammo paid for by Uncle Sugar v. private pay? That's pricey and you need the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
I took two classes this past Sept and Nov and in both, RDS prevailed. 14/17 in the first class and 12/16 in the second.

At distance the RDS pistols smoked us non-RDS shooters. No question about it. This is short stuff from 15 to 25 yards, moving targets, 40 yard obstacle course and even at distance from 150 to 150 yds.

My non-RDS pistol was fine but not as fast however at typical SD distances, RDS pistols didn't show an advantage.

On a knife attack system from 21 feet coming at you at speed, RDS was useless. Step back drills was useless too. Time and distance is where they were really good.

But looking at all the RDS guns, the form factor changed quite a bit. An undermount light, such as a SF or TLR7A, along with an RDS might be a formidable package but it's not made for easy concealment. It moved most mid-sized guns into the duty gun category. Compact 9s were now mid sized.

I like them and they are pretty good but I'm not switching over. Irons with night sights and a neon insert work fine.

Some of the instructors who are current LEO with an agency switching to RDS said it will take 10k rounds to switch over and master the RDS. Some thought it might be more.

Ammo paid for by Uncle Sugar v. private pay? That's pricey and you need the time.

10k rounds per guy or department wide? Sounds like a very high amount of rounds. My research and training classes have been showing 500-1,000 rounds per guy to get it locked down for the most part.

quote:

10k rounds per guy or department wide? Sounds like a very high amount of rounds. My research and training classes have been showing 500-1,000 rounds per guy to get it locked down for the most part.

I concur with this. 500 rounds in conjunction with some organized drills and dry-fire should be enough to establish reasonable proficiency. I'm allotted on the low end of that for our transition course, and it seems to be plenty to get guys acclimated to the point where they can easily pass the Qual, usually better than they score with irons.

Mastery....well, that is a different thing altogether. I think I'm better with the dot at this point than irons, but I wouldn't say I've mastered it. I'm definitely still learning.