Hackathorne's video has some good info for people to consider. I happen to disagree that its slower target acquisition with a red dot. I think one has to train to be good with it. For me, its fun and has been a new challenge. Not sure there is a right or wrong answer here.

with a good bit of practice a red dot can and will be just as fast as iron and even more accurate...

but with that said and actually owning several pistols with them I agree 100% that they are not needed on a defensive handgun and have the potential to be a sever hazard.

As I've posted before... I learned in coastal navigation class one should never depend on electronics when one's life is on the line...you can have all the GPS, Loran (do they still have that?) radar... radio direction finders... depth meters and etc... but you better know how to figure out exactly where you are with out them....

I really can't see a red dot any better and in most cases worse.... they are, like said, nice to help one make tight groups.... and I will also say on my sig p320 it helped me correct some grip and trigger pull problems....

I bought a RDS for my .22 LR target pistol, which has a Weaver rail.

I didn’t use it long for shooting, but I still find it useful for dry fire from time to time. If your trigger control isn’t good, the red dot jump at break is VERY obvious, alerting you to a problem.

I guess I'm going to be one of the few contrarians here. I'm faster with a dot at any range that one would use sights. At point blank matters not what you have on the gun. I am completely lost that a dot would get me killed. I'm more accurate by a substantial amount starting at about 10y and no slower with the amount of accuracy benefit increasing the longer the range. What Ken says is that at normal handgun fighting distances (<10y) its not an advantage (but also not a disadvantage). I accept that but there are many, many, many examples of self defense where the engagement distance is not that short. What he also says is it takes time to learn the dot if you are a long time iron sighted shooter (his example 5K rounds to learn after 100K iron rounds) but new shooters pick it up quickly. My personal experience is that I didn't need very long to be faster and more accurate but I compete often, but ok some others might need some transition time especially if they have old bad habits and don't shoot often. Correctly maybe transitioning is not for them. But for new shooters I have seen people who come to our weekly steel matches who could not reliably hit 8" steel plates at 10y turn into consistent 95-100% shooters when they got a dot sighted pistol. Faster? maybe maybe not, but always more accurate. I completely get that people who can't actually lubricate their gun shouldn't add the complexity of an optic with batteries and screws and dust and whatever. But if you are going to bother to carry a gun 7x24x365 you need to master the basics of whatever setup you are using. And you will be a better shooter with an optic IMO. Yup another failure point, but with a big benefit so you have to decide if that's worth it. Lots of items fall in that category like a light on your gun, or the number of spare mags you carry of the type of gun you choose to carry.
I get that competition is not civilian self defense, but mostly iron sights don't get to shoot in the same divisions as optic pistols because they would dominate them (not ). The most popular classes in all the major shooting divisions are 'carry optics' or similar. Military organizations are not spending millions and millions to put optics on their pistols and battle rifles because they are worse than irons.
I'm kind of stunned actually by the sigforum negativity on optics. I get there are tradeoffs but for me I don't want to shoot an iron sighted gun ever again. YMMV of course.

Need is a strong word and, yeah I don’t need one. I don’t use it as a crutch.

I’ve become proficient with them and am faster with an RD every where from 3-25 yards. Yes, I do recognize @ 3yards point shooting is fastest and I practice that also. Ken’s absolutism about it not being faster @ 10 yards is not based on any kind of reality. Just do some comparisons of match results. Pure bloviating

My experience is, I can get hits more regularly, more accurately and further away, so it is a force multiplier.

Modern optics are much more durable and reliable, so if you’re gonna use one, spend the money on a proven optic, change the battery every year and learn it.

I have played with some RDS pistols, and struggle with sight aquisition,

but I was brought up on 1911's and similar,

as an older guy, the big ball front sights, have been helpful to me, and keep the profile of the pistol the same,

as in I don't have to worry about the extra size the sights add to the pistols,

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Pure bloviating

Indeed.

Makes me think of this stunning breakthrough.

I'm always amazed at the number of people that think they 'need' to put an RDS on a P365.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Pure bloviating

Indeed.

You may not believe it, but, somehow, I knew this would get under your skin- someone having the audacity to swim against the prevailing current- because when it comes to these electronic tumors, you're a true believer ten ways from Sunday, and Heaven forbid that anyone speak against these gadgets.

And, oh, yes, Ken Hackathorn is such a blowhard. Yes, he's no kind of authority and he's not sitting there with a half dozen of his own RDS-equipped pistols he's shot thousands of rounds through and he's not really a shooter and the points he carefully and logically lays out in that video are all bullshit, and all of that is covered with no investment from you other than "indeed".

I'm convinced.

When I was working as a Law Enforcement Firearms instructor the Company I worked for did not allow any devices to be added to the handgun.
Most employees were not "gun people", they really had no interest in shooting or having a firearm,some did and wanted all the gadgets they could hang off the pistol.
At the time the laser dots were the rage.
I would on occasion have students beg me to use there gun that had a red dot attached.They were the most experienced and shooters I knew were good shooters.
On occasion I would agree to let them try them during yearly qualifications because I knew they would shoot slower than other experienced shooters and shoot slower and less accurate than they had done in previous qualifications.
All shooting strings were begun from the holster.
I was always right. They struggled and usually were still pulling the trigger compared to other shooters on the firing line that had finished the string.There accuracy was also worse than there previous qualifications.
I did this so other shooters would see that looking for that red dot ate up time compared to shooters that drew,put the front sight on the target, kept the front sight somewhere in the rear sight notch and pulled the trigger.
Accuracy also seemed to suffer because the red dot shooters were always searching for the dot and then trying to hold the dot in the target bullseye before pulling the trigger.

Anyone that claims they know what is right for EVERYONE is a blowhard.

I agree, wholeheartedly, but that is not what the man said, and that's not what I said, either:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Just as Hackathorn says in his video- if all this is inconsequential to you and you like the RDS or feel as if you need the RDS- more power to you. Buy it, mount it, shoot it, knock yourself out. I've heard it all before, but I am telling you that for the way almost all of us will employ the defensive handgun (that is to say, inside of 10 yards), the RDS offers you no advantage and IMO, gets in your way and compromises you as a shooter.

Please direct me to the time stamp in that video where Hackathorn talked about shooters as one monolithic group when deciding to employ an RDS or not. Please point out in my remarks where I said such a thing.

I guess everyone has different experiences. I’ve found that I’m both faster and more accurate with an RDS. When pushing time closer in with irons, a flash sight picture involves the front sight somewhere in the rear sight notch. With an RDS, the flash sight picture is a flash of red near the target area.

Given that presbyopia has struck and focusing on the front sight is tough, being able to float the dot over the target is a lot easier for me than lining up irons.

Another benefit for me is that if I screw up the trigger control, the dot makes it really obvious what happened. I used to be able to pickup similar cues with irons, but that changed several years ago.

For me, learning an RDS was easier using a slide equipped with a suppressor height sights that co-witnessed with the dot. It was about building consistency in the presentation and having the dot show up as I drive the pistol toward the target. I tend to think of it as point shooting with the dot for confirmation, not looking for the dot.

It did take some time and effort to get comfortable with an RDS, and if I don’t shoot for a while, the rust does show.

YMMV, but I’ll take the help.

The comment about “being on crack if you think it’s an advantage at 0-10 yards” is the absolutism Ken applies to everyone and thus diminishes his argument. It’s rather immature and lacking hard evidence

It’s not faster or more accurate for him. Maybe he’s just getting old and slow and full of flatulance.

7:25 of vid.

You take one throwaway remark against the balance of all the points he made in that video- a remark that is a matter of opinion- and ignore that he immediately afterwards says, in essence, if you disagree, then put an RDS on your pistol?

If we are now classifying anyone who holds any opinion as a "blowhard" then, we're all blowhards. Come on.

I have found myself faster and more accurate w/ my red dots. I am now fast and more accurate w/ the suppressor height irons on those pistols. In saying that I will admit it took a lot of practice to do so. Lots of live fire and lots and lots and lots of dry fire and drawing from the holster.

Take a good quality red dot specific class if you can. It made the world of difference to me after trying to learn it on my own. I was frustrated and about to chuck the dots in the trash till I did that. Practice and learn to trust the dot.

My agency allows red dots after you take and pass the class. I tell them that it is not for everyone but, if you want it you are going to have to put in the work to make it pay off. If you are not don’t bother and just get better w/ your irons.

Now that I have been running a red dot for a while I cannot image going back to just iron sights.

No, blowhards make comments that are void of introspection, without knowledge of other people’s learned experiences and make absolute statements (without providing evidence) that his opinion is the only one that matters.

And yes he said if you disagree put a dot on it, and THEN made the comment about being on crack if you think it matters. Sounds genuine. LOL

Fact of the matter is, there are many advantages that RD offer, single focal plane on target, situational awareness being able to look beyond the front sight etc.
Ken didn’t offer a single example of it advantages. He only touched on it being easier for new shooters to train for the dot.

Sorry, to me doesn’t sound like someone making a reasoned argument, it’s someone making a you tube video.

My limited experience.... I've shot a perfect score twice on a very hard shooting qualification test with my Sig P320 compact with the factory Romeo sight. But both times this was after putting over 600 rounds through it for the previous 3 days. This is a course where many good shooters struggle to even pass. And it is a timed test where you have limits like less than 2 seconds to draw from concealed and put two rounds in center mass. The last time I did it I had no time penalties. As I've posted above... I still will not have one on a defensive gun that I might need to rely on... for one reason... A battery.

quote:

Take a good quality red dot specific class if you can. It made the world of difference to me after trying to learn it on my own. I was frustrated and about to chuck the dots in the trash till I did that. Practice and learn to trust the dot.

This was the game changer for me as well. I'd given it a lot of time on my own, and it didn't really click until I got some formal instruction via the Sig Academy PMO instructor class. Even then, I was slow. There was a test at the end, and I was 100% on my hits, but over time on every single stage. But the class gave me the principles to work on, and with a bunch more practice and an eventual willingness to fully embrace the concept of target focus and a flash sight picture, I've gotten faster, even up close.

As I referenced in my earlier post in this thread, the most recent postal match demonstrates it on paper and on the clock. My first set of attempts (and there were quite a few) with an iron-sighted P228, I only got one clean target without no-shoot hits (barely) and it took me 6.89 seconds to do it. And that was out of an open top IWB kydex holster. https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...58/m/1330080484/p/54

A few days later, I went back with my dot-equipped P320 and ran the same drill again (out of an arguably slower thumb-break holster). I shot a bunch of them clean, all of them faster than the P228, with the best being 5.08 seconds. The drill in question isn't particularly long-range (only 10 yards), but it requires a good degree of precision, round-accountability, and some time pressure, and I feel like it provides a fair comparison of the two platforms.

Like I said earlier I don't consider myself a top 1% shooter by any means. I don't compete, I've only been to a few classes, and most of my practice time is on my own time and dime as my agency has virtually no ammo budget. They sent me to instructor schools, but that's pretty much because I was the only one interested in doing it, not because I have some kind of special skill above and beyond anyone else. I shoot a little more than most gun owners, but that's by personal choice, not because I'm getting paid to do it. Still, it's clear that the dot provides even an average guy like me a significant advantage.

I don't feel that a dot is a necessity for every carry gun, and I don't have one mounted to every one of mine. The dot does have some disadvantages, and it definitely requires more regular inspection and maintenance than iron sights. It's also going to take some work to learn it, especially for someone who is used to shooting irons. But it can be a force multiplier, and if my situation will reasonably accommodate one I'd rather have it than not.