quote:

Originally posted by Prince Herman:
I just ran 1,000 rounds through a P320 in two days with no issues, whatsoever. I have watched your video and IMHO I believe it is operator error. Since this is a semi-automatic pistol, one way or the other, the operator has to get-off the trigger in order for the trigger to reset. For whatever reason (or perhaps for some advantage that you presuppose exists), you are decidedly playing with the trigger reset. I can only guess that you are trying to "shorten" the reset time. It is happening with your deliberate, slow-motion trigger manipulation because, frankly, you can't do it with a normal manipulation of the trigger. That is what Sig means by "severe manipulation".

Prince Herman has the right of it. I know you don't want to hear this, OP. But it's still the case; you're short-stroking the trigger's reset and that's the issue. I watched your video several times and it's obvious that the point you're releasing the trigger to is shorter each time the "dead trigger" issue arises. I challenge you and anyone else who has this "issue" with their 320 to make a video in which after each and every shot fired, your trigger finger actually physically leaves the face of the trigger and then gets back onto it to begin the next trigger press. You'll see that magically....the issue no longer occurs.

quote:

Originally posted by bcharvat:

quote:

Originally posted by Prince Herman:
I just ran 1,000 rounds through a P320 in two days with no issues, whatsoever. I have watched your video and IMHO I believe it is operator error. Since this is a semi-automatic pistol, one way or the other, the operator has to get-off the trigger in order for the trigger to reset. For whatever reason (or perhaps for some advantage that you presuppose exists), you are decidedly playing with the trigger reset. I can only guess that you are trying to "shorten" the reset time. It is happening with your deliberate, slow-motion trigger manipulation because, frankly, you can't do it with a normal manipulation of the trigger. That is what Sig means by "severe manipulation".

Prince Herman has the right of it. I know you don't want to hear this, OP. But it's still the case; you're short-stroking the trigger's reset and that's the issue. I watched your video several times and it's obvious that the point you're releasing the trigger to is shorter each time the "dead trigger" issue arises. I challenge you and anyone else who has this "issue" with their 320 to make a video in which after each and every shot fired, your trigger finger actually physically leaves the face of the trigger and then gets back onto it to begin the next trigger press. You'll see that magically....the issue no longer occurs.

I know you're trying to help, but watch again. You'll see my finger comes off the trigger and it's still dead.

I'm not a gunsmith, but my best understanding is that most pistols reset the sear as you let the trigger forward. However, that doesn't seem to be how the P320 works. With the P320, the sear resets as you continue to press the trigger to the rear. That is the double click people talk about. The sear resets on trigger pull, not trigger release. So I don't think you actually can short stroke the P320, but you can apparently short pull it. Again though, I'm not a smith.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:

quote:

Originally posted by bcharvat:

quote:

Originally posted by Prince Herman:
I just ran 1,000 rounds through a P320 in two days with no issues, whatsoever. I have watched your video and IMHO I believe it is operator error. Since this is a semi-automatic pistol, one way or the other, the operator has to get-off the trigger in order for the trigger to reset. For whatever reason (or perhaps for some advantage that you presuppose exists), you are decidedly playing with the trigger reset. I can only guess that you are trying to "shorten" the reset time. It is happening with your deliberate, slow-motion trigger manipulation because, frankly, you can't do it with a normal manipulation of the trigger. That is what Sig means by "severe manipulation".

Prince Herman has the right of it. I know you don't want to hear this, OP. But it's still the case; you're short-stroking the trigger's reset and that's the issue. I watched your video several times and it's obvious that the point you're releasing the trigger to is shorter each time the "dead trigger" issue arises. I challenge you and anyone else who has this "issue" with their 320 to make a video in which after each and every shot fired, your trigger finger actually physically leaves the face of the trigger and then gets back onto it to begin the next trigger press. You'll see that magically....the issue no longer occurs.

I know you're trying to help, but watch again. You'll see my finger comes off the trigger and it's still dead.

I'm not a gunsmith, but my best understanding is that most pistols reset the sear as you let the trigger forward. However, that doesn't seem to be how the P320 works. With the P320, the sear resets as you continue to press the trigger to the rear. That is the double click people talk about. The sear resets on trigger pull, not trigger release. So I don't think you actually can short stroke the P320, but you can apparently short pull it. Again though, I'm not a smith.

Well, that makes two of us (not being smiths). Let's suppose you're correct and it's a trigger pull issue rather than a trigger reset issue. I'll modify my original challenge: can you/will you make another video in which you deliberately pull the trigger all the way to the rear of its travel every shot, AND allow your trigger finger to physically come off of the trigger after every shot before beginning the next press? Can you replicate the issue within those parameters?

If you fire a gun then release the trigger to the point your trigger finger comes off the trigger and the gun doesn't fire the next time you pull the trigger(like in the OP's video) it's a defective pistol plain and simple. No way is it operator error. He's not failing to release the trigger fully to the reset point and short stroking the trigger. SIG needs to fix this ASAP.

Didn't watch the video at first, but his finger is clearly coming off the the trigger. If I pull the trigger to the point the gun goes bang, I expect to be able to release it and have it reset. Can someone who knows how the mechanics of this thing chime in. Is there a specific distance it needs to be pulled beyond when the gun goes bang to make it operate?

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Can someone who knows how the mechanics of this thing chime in. Is there a specific distance it needs to be pulled beyond when the gun goes bang to make it operate?

BuddyChryst has already given completely accurate technical analysis of why this is happening. If you stop your trigger pull in between the first click (striker release) and the second click (sear reset/trigger bar disconnect) you end up with a dead trigger.

Now, this was a theoretically potential issue I identified within moments of handling the first P320 I ever saw/bought. It is why within two hours of having the P320 into the shop I had already converted it into a traditional slide disconnect sear/trigger bar action, and I still run that particular gun in that configuration today.

With that said, we have investigated this thoroughly. We have specially modified guns to the maximum distance achievable between the two clicks (intentionally creating the worst double click possible) and then tested them trying to stall them as BuddyChryst has had happen during live fire and it is nearly impossible.
It requires an extreme trigger manipulation as well as impeccable trigger finger pressure application and distance of trigger movement to intentionally make this happen during live fire, although it is pretty easy with some P320s under dry fire.

In reality, I doubt BuddyChryst is able to put only the exact amount of pressure on the trigger to break the first click and able to stop his trigger finger from travelling far enough to the rear to do this during live fire.
Much more likely is that he has so much of his trigger finger through the trigger that sometimes during firing, the tip of his trigger finger contacts the frame/rear of trigger guard opening near the mag release on the left side of the frame and snubs the movement of his finger to the rear. The question becomes, is Sig responsible for errors caused by non-standard use of the mechanism?

Basically, due to the admittedly unusual manner in which BuddyChryst manipulates the trigger it happens with him, shooting that specific gun. I've never seen it happen with anyone else.

BuddyChryst, if your willing to ship it to us and back to you I'm happy to shorten the distance between the first and second click and minimize that as much as possible to see if it will work with your trigger technique at no charge. I would also strongly recommend a Large size grip module if you have that much excess trigger reach.

My email is below if I can help.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rln_21,

That is a darned generous offer Roy!

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:

Before I email them back my decision, what would you do?

Somehow I figured someone from GrayGuns would be along and make a very generous offer. In light of that development I would get the gun back from Sig and send it to Rln to work on.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
That is a darned generous offer Roy!

I hate to see someone give up on a great platform that shoots well for them but it may not be worth it to him given the cost of shipping.

So is this considered to be a superior sear reset design in any way? In my view, the shooter's done his part once the sear breaks and the gun fires. Shouldn't the action do the rest? Were they trying to shorten the trigger reset vs. the competition? Was the design the result of a workaround to avoid infringing on another patent?

Anyone done a drop test on the pistol while in this "limbo" state? I might be tempted to throw the damn thing if this kept happening to me haha

Wow! Roy, I greatly appreciate your very generous offer.

Prior to seeing your post, I requested that the issue be escalated to a supervisor/manager and asked that SIG replace the FCU or refund the purchase price, and stated my preference was a new FCU. I am waiting to hear the response. If they will not replace the FCU, I would prefer to stick with the P320, so I will likely take you up on the offer.

If I had the pistol in hand, I'd see if you're right about my trigger finger hitting the frame, but you may be on to something. It doesn't with the VP9 or PPQ, but those triggers stop before reaching the frame. When I tried my classic SIGs, I am touching the mag release with the tip of my finger after the trigger breaks:


I use the largest grips I can find on every pistol. I have Hogue overmolded finger grooves on the P229 pictured, and ordered the Large Carry grip module with the P320 and put rubberized Talons on too. The first thing I did was swap out to the large.

Anyway, thank you for your insights and I will email you. And thank you to all that have posted for your opinions and advice.

I have read this thread a couple of times & it struck me! I had a reset problem when I bent a trigger spring while installing a PELT trigger & did not replace it. Have you removed the trigger at any time? If so replace the trigger spring. I have changed out several triggers & always keep several trigger springs handy. The best video to do so is the Grayguns Trigger install video.
I own several P320's & have yet to have any other problem. None of my P320's have ever malfunctioned a single time.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Anush,

quote:

I bent a trigger spring

The spring included with that trigger is significantly weaker than stock and some will cause a failure to reset. that requires replacing it with the stock spring. That was Bruce's advice to me when I had that issue. When the FCU wears in later in the year, I might trey replacing it again.


But in this case the handgun is totally stock I'm guessing.

It happens here at the 3:15 mark, so it is apparently a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:
It happens here at the 3:15 mark, so it is apparently a problem.


[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iB-aZYy2v2k" width="640"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

It appears more and more so. Sig's already won the military contract...they might as well issue a recall now before this gets out of hand. However, they don't have an official, tested, and approved fix for it yet, which could be why they punted on Buddy's gun...for now.


And I can't stand this nutnfancy guy, but I just found this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjdgiZ1JTRA

At about 25:30 he notes TWO unexplained "light primer strikes", which would actually appear to be the same issue Buddy has and the MAC people had in the video above.

BTW, great analysis of those issues nutnfancy...way to really dig into the review and give your followers the straight dope

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ether,

Seems to me, the failure could happen when a user is under stress (gun fight) when you're really counting on the pistol to save your life.

quote:

that requires replacing it with the stock spring

It was a stock spring that was bent. The reset problem occurred in about 10% of the dry fires. Installed a new spring, ran 200 rds at the range with no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Prince Herman:
I just ran 1,000 rounds through a P320 in two days with no issues, whatsoever. I have watched your video and IMHO I believe it is operator error. Since this is a semi-automatic pistol, one way or the other, the operator has to get-off the trigger in order for the trigger to reset. For whatever reason (or perhaps for some advantage that you presuppose exists), you are decidedly playing with the trigger reset. I can only guess that you are trying to "shorten" the reset time. It is happening with your deliberate, slow-motion trigger manipulation because, frankly, you can't do it with a normal manipulation of the trigger. That is what Sig means by "severe manipulation".

. The fact you shot a 320 with no issues has nothing zip nada to do with OPs issue. Did you read the part where Sig got it to malfunction, then admitted it's normal?! And any pistol including a Hi Point will shoot from the reset.

OP, if you want the FCU they should give you one. Keep pushing and let us know. Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:

quote:

Originally posted by xl_target:
What does "severe manipulation of the trigger" mean?
Did they specify exactly what that is?
I'm not intending and sarcasm here, I would genuinely like to know.

If it failed once, in their testing, shouldn't that be grounds for a replacement?

Well, I spoke with the CS agent not the smith, but he indicated manipulation with the first knuckle (which I do since I shoot DA/SA mostly and have large hands) may be a cause. He said it may push the trigger to the side (?). I don't see how that has anything to do with not hitting the sear reset. This is why they suggest the classic SIG line, it's more suited to the amount of trigger finger I use.

WHAT!? It's a trigger and it's only got one purpose and it shouldn't matter whether you Manipulation with any of you digits or a hard dick! Just saying.

Not sure my hard dick would fit in a trigger guard. . Maybe one of those winter war fold away guards would work for me.

Sorry I honestly couldn't resist. I do agree that this seems like a potential problem for more then just a single user.