quote:

Originally posted by isolator:
And yet....Sig did exactly this with the P210
They could do it again........

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
This would go 180 degrees against all the trends in the civilian firearm industry. It wouldn't be plastic, pocket sized, and 9mm.

The P210 Carry comes w/ an Elite/Legion level price tag, which goes against the criterion you posted.

Valid points you make
Sig could add scandium to the alloy to strengthen it like S&W has done and/or make full stainless frames. They could also increase the thickness of the rails. Alloys have come along way and continue to very reliable if manufactured properly. Look at AR receivers...
Something else to keep in mind about reliability:
When a plastic framed pistol encounters an over-pressure round and a case rupture occurs, the grip and frame are usually unusable after. I experienced a case head rupture with a +p+ 9mm round in a 1911 many years ago and other than the mag blowing out the magwell, the pistol did not suffer catastrophic damage and could have been reused if needed.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
The big problem is that the metal frame guns are significantly more expensive to manufacture. This is a big reason for the plastic boom. And at the same time the plastic guns have significant advantages. First they're going to be lighter for the same size gun. Second, on plastic framed guns, the actual frame rales are almost always steel. On allow framed guns they're aluminum. With a steel slide riding on aluminum frame rails, the steel is going to win. And we've seen frame wear issues with allow framed SIGS. The steel on steel combination in plastic frame guns last longer.

So with a metal frame, the gun is going to cost more, be heavier for the same size/capacity gun, and may not last as long.

quote:

Originally posted by isolator:
I hear you. I know the plastic stuff will never go away but they could go back to basics and offer a simple line of "base model," classics (no Elite/Legion offerings).
As long as we're at it...if you're listening Sig, no forward cocking serrations needed. It would be less machining/time in production.
I even have a new slogan all made up:

"Sig Sauer Classic Series...simply reliable"

Honestly,

I don't buy this answer of "SIG can't afford" to make Classic SIGs.

Glock, H&K, Walther, Beretta, CZ and a number of other companies are able to make guns in Europe and also turn a profit.

Beretta's I see for pretty cheap for a starter alloy framed 92 is like $550-600 online.

Alloy framed guns still exist and aren't breaking frames left and right.

It's polymer fantasy to think most alloy framed guns were breaking rails.

My 3rd gen Glock had a catastrophic failure which would have caused me to lose a gunfight, so there (wasn't ammo related, breech block pins broke)

Also didn't the P210 Carry just come out (with alloy frame)....?

Every other big name makes all metal guns to some degree including the myriad of 1911's available.

I think it's more of "SIG is maximizing it's profit at the expense of older customers/older gun models"

SIG has a bad history of dropping product support.

I'm happy at least for now that I'm seeing more classic SIG parts but they shouldn't have given up on the Classic line like they have.

Just the fact they don't need to redesign those guns (R+D should be paid for).....from an engineering standpoint if they still have the tooling the overall cost of production are just wages and materials.

Even if it was just not very profitable...

Raise your prices, make limited runs of all Classics at different times, be more interesting like SIG used to be instead of trying to be Glock 2.0.

Bring back the P239, not the P225A1 if we're making choices here

I'd love a return of the entire P series line but the P220 carry would be my first choice. When they redid the P225 I was so hopeful and then when it got squashed I was so disappointed.

I think the chance of it happening is just about zero though. If wishes were fishes...

@isolator

It's the RTT. I should have it Monday.

Seller shipped fast, but then something happened.

quote:

Originally posted by sean7:
@isolator

It's the RTT. I should have it Monday.

Seller shipped fast, but then something happened.

Sounds like the one from Keystone? That one looks very nice. Congratulations.

Yup, 12131, that's the one. Thanks!

I would definitely be up for a P220 Carry.

Hmmm....maybe OP can organize a SigForum group buy?

A couple of pics from the SIG booth at SHOT 2007

I got my first P-220 “American” in .45 in 1989 and carried it as a duty gun in the early to mid 1990s. Still have it.

That said, if I knew then, what I know now, I would have been carrying a P226 or P228.

Gun companies don’t exist to make guns, they exist to make money.

The current market for new P-220s, much less a niche like P220 carry models is very limited, in part by market trends / buyer tastes and in part by the volume of P220s in the used market.

Even if SIG USA had the excess production capacity, which they don’t, the market isn’t there to support anything other than a one time limited run for a distributor. For everyone who claims a to want one of these guns maybe 1 in 20 will put their money where their mouth is. At least part of the run will wind up being liquidated via CDNN.

Re: the assertion that HK, Glock and CZ can make metal frame guns in Europe and still make a profit:

- HK and Glock only make polymer frame pistols and both have, and continue to expand, production in the USA.

- SIGs European facilities are in Germany and Switzerland, both of which have high costs and very restrictive export laws on firearms. SIG Germany has been raided by the German equivalent of the FBI for export violations and under severe punitive export restrictions.

- CZ is in a country with low production and labor costs and reasonable export regulations. Even so, they’ve been making CZ75 variants a long time. They have gotten efficient at making them and have long ago paid off tooling /infrastructure. Even so, most of CZ’s newer product line is polymer based.

The same efficiency and sunk infrastructure costs apply to the relatively low cost of Beretta 92 series guns. It’s the legacy of the 30 plus years of the M9 contract.

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

Gun companies don’t exist to make guns, they exist to make money.

The current market for new P-220s, much less a niche like P220 carry models is very limited.

Even if SIG USA had the excess production capacity, which they don’t <--(WHERE IS THE FACTS FOR THIS), the market isn’t there to support anything other than a one time limited run for a distributor (THIS WOULD BE OK).

Re: the assertion that HK, Glock and CZ can make metal frame guns in Europe and still make a profit: (I NEVER SAID METAL)

- HK and Glock only make polymer frame pistols and both have, and continue to expand, production in the USA.

- SIGs European facilities are in Germany and Switzerland, both of which have high costs and very restrictive export laws on firearms. SIG Germany has been raided by the German equivalent of the FBI for export violations and under severe punitive export restrictions.

- CZ is in a country with low production and labor costs and reasonable export regulations. Even so, they’ve been making CZ75 variants a long time. They have gotten efficient at making them and have long ago paid off tooling /infrastructure. Even so, most of CZ’s newer product line is polymer based.

The same efficiency and sunk infrastructure costs apply to the relatively low cost of Beretta 92 series guns. It’s the legacy of the 30 plus years of the M9 contract.

First of all I didn't make an assertion about "metal guns" I said HK, Glock, Beretta and CZ make "guns" in Europe and make a profit, you added all that and made a good strawman argument about it.

Walther brings in all steel stuff and apparently isn't out of business yet.

Yes, SIG violating export law is what I would point to as why they can't "make a profit" in Germany.

SIG (and the current CEO) violated German export laws by saying SIGPro's were going to the USA when they were going to a Columbian War zone, that's how German production/export for SIG got killed.

It's not honest to say SIG gave up in Germany due to cost, it was due to their CEO's in germany and apparently CEO Cohen colluding that caused them to lose German export.

I remember watching a recent youtube interview with SIG representative talking about how they couldn't make a profit importing guns from Europe.

He said nothing of what they had done and thought to myself "I wonder who believes this BS"

A couple photos of my recently acquired P220 carry:

https://www.amazon.com/photos/...hR1urCFjthu1_O_GGvk6

This thing is in excellent condition. The box is dated May 2012.

I haven't seen much info on this model. Anyone have any details? How unusual are they?

Edit: to clarify, I mean this variant - 220CAR-45-RTSS

You could look into the original "compact" 220 the SIG P-245 as well.

Usually you can find them on GB.