E. Langdon will replace Beretta recoil springs at 5000 rounds, most of the slide internals at 10000 and the locking block at 15000.
He is not interested in bragging how long his gun will function without attention, he is intent on keeping it in good shape for competition.

Thank you, Jim. I admire plain speaking.

This was part of my job for twenty years in my PD. Believe it or not, new guns are often cheaper than replacing parts. Our P229 in 357 Sig needed parts replacements. Our guns and holsters were twelve years old. The holsters were very outdated. First, I have to put out a purchase order for the parts, then I have to work out a schedule to actually do the work (it involves allot of OT as my main duty was patrol). Then, I have to swap out guns without incurring OT for the individual officers, (not an easy task). Then, replacement holsters are about $145. Instead of doing all of this, we traded in our P229s for Gen 4 G22 for about $179 per gun and we got new Safariland holsters thrown into the deal.

My first police turn-in purchase was a P229 in .357SIG from CDNN. Came with night sights and Hogue rubber grips. I think it was $395 delivered around 2004. I eventually took it to Robar for full NP3 and now I wish I hadn't sold it.

quote:

I wish I hadn't sold it.

I’ve read this so many times in just the last week or so much less over the last couple decades.

…..and the moral of the story, if you have the space and don’t need the money to live just pack that sucker in the back of the safe and get a “free” “new” gun a decade later. .

Back then I needed the money. Now I don't, so I'm not selling any more classic P-series SIGs unless it's one I have several of already.

I've posted about this at length in the past as far as LE firearms replacement goes.

In general, I think you'll see average replacement cycles of 7-12 years among agency owned firearms. A lot of those guns might only have a few thousand rounds on them at that point, but it's starting to come up on night sights wearing out and normal, manufacturer recommended spring replacements (particularly recoil springs and magazine springs). On top of that, certain units (SWAT, for example) and officers may shoot quite a bit more than the average, and trying to track round counts on dozens or hundreds or thousands of guns is essentially not possible.

With a set of night sights costing +/- $100, an RSA costing $10-$20, and mag springs costing around $5 each, you're looking at $130ish per gun in material costs. That does not count the armorer time to swap parts or any consideration that you now have a 10 year old gun with mostly 10 year old parts. Any time something else breaks on one of those guns, you are eating up armorer time and continuing to put money into a 10 year old gun.

Contrast that with agencies receiving great pricing from most manufacturers and relatively decent trade values (usually) and it just makes sense to swap the guns out. I think the last time that we did a full department swap we paid less than $200 per gun. Also, if you aren't buying Glock, you see a lot of deals that include duty holsters it seems like.

There are of course exceptions to this general rule:

Very large agencies (several thousand officers) may be more likely to do rotating replacements of a percentage of their staff or to only issue a gun once and leave replacements to the officer (I believe this is essentially what LAPD does.)

Very small agencies without buying power and budgets for equipment may wait for stuff to break before they replace guns (hopefully).

Agencies of all sizes may require or allow officers to buy and maintain their own firearms. I am not aware of an agency that puts a limit on the age of a personal firearm, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were out there.

quote:

In general, I think you'll see average replacement cycles of 7-12 years among agency owned firearms.

That's been my experience as well. I'm curious if the adoption of optics may decrease that window somewhat as we go forward, though. Electronic tech changes so rapidly and becomes outdated so fast, I can see that deprecating weapons platforms more quickly, especially with slides that are milled for a specific optic footprint (like the P320RX) instead of a modular plate system like the Glock MOS.


It will be interesting to see how current optics hold up over time, and if the industry continues to adhere to the current (non)standards for mounting with future optic models. I know a lot of people prefer a direct-mount for carry/duty use, so that could further exacerbate the problem if footprints change.

Interesting thread. On the service life of pistols, I think any gun from a well known mfg. - i.e. Glock, Sig, HK S&W, etc. is likely to be good for at least 40-50,000 rounds with only minimal maintenance. Considering the cost $500-800 that's pretty damn good price amortized over the life of the gun. And not surprised that HK's (particularly USP's) have such good results. I own one and in typical HK/German fashion it is very solidly put together.

As for police trade-ins - I've bought a couple and have been very pleased. Bought a Glock 22 for, I think, under $400 that appears to be virtually unfired. And I suspect some of the PD trade-ins are a result of departments moving from .40 to 9mm. There do seem to be a lot of .40's available at very attractive prices.

quote:

It will be interesting to see how current optics hold up over time, and if the industry continues to adhere to the current (non)standards for mounting with future optic models.

I too wonder how MRDS will fair over a decade or so or actual agency/normal LEO use. Will the cost benefit still be there? Will they hold up to the abuse and neglect any widespread use will bring.

Will there be studies done at an agency level that say we only have X shootings and most them happen in Y manner and the MRDS can be shown to bring Z to the table but at however much cost. Is that Z benefit actually worth the cost?

Let’s face it accounting and costs are a huge part of any agencies equipment budget.

I do think that assuming the MRDS concept really does become as ubiquitous as optics on rifles that there will be a standard mounting developed or used or at the very least a couple if we have to take into consideration the smaller guns vs. the larger ones.

Please note the above was said thinking about an agency bean counter in mind not said as shooting will only happen within this statistical parameter or that so you/cops/whomever should only prepare for those. I am just wondering how these costs and uses will shake out over large departments over time.

Do departments see the same level of discounting with optics that they do with firearms? Like are they getting RMR’s for 120 bucks or some such?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimipickle:
Agree, I love a police trade in shotgun and glock when I can find them ...

AIM Surplus has a large selection of Glock LEO Trade-ins. They have a large selection for sale at good prices right now. Glock 22's for $299.95, a few others for $399. They even have a SIG P229R DAK for $550.

I've bought 5 SIG Classic P-series pistols from them...4 non-rail 226's and 1 229R, and I've been happy with all my purchases. I'm strongly considering a G-22 for $300 from them.

2 of my AIM SIGs

Somewhere there was a post showing old folded slide P series Sigs and the color change of the anodizing on the frame with use.

It was the info on Bruce’s site -
Grayguns inspection but with pics.
Anyone know where that might be?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

It will be interesting to see how current optics hold up over time, and if the industry continues to adhere to the current (non)standards for mounting with future optic models.

I too wonder how MRDS will fair over a decade or so or actual agency/normal LEO use. Will the cost benefit still be there? Will they hold up to the abuse and neglect any widespread use will bring.

Will there be studies done at an agency level that say we only have X shootings and most them happen in Y manner and the MRDS can be shown to bring Z to the table but at however much cost. Is that Z benefit actually worth the cost?

Let’s face it accounting and costs are a huge part of any agencies equipment budget.

I do think that assuming the MRDS concept really does become as ubiquitous as optics on rifles that there will be a standard mounting developed or used or at the very least a couple if we have to take into consideration the smaller guns vs. the larger ones.

Please note the above was said thinking about an agency bean counter in mind not said as shooting will only happen within this statistical parameter or that so you/cops/whomever should only prepare for those. I am just wondering how these costs and uses will shake out over large departments over time.

Do departments see the same level of discounting with optics that they do with firearms? Like are they getting RMR’s for 120 bucks or some such?

I had not thought of this until now. There has to some difference in wear to the operation cycle of a firearm when an optic is attached to the rear of the slide or even the mid section. The mass of the slide, even just a few ounces could change wear patterns over time. We should start seeing differences soon as the demand for optics on slides is increasing.

About 2007ish, several army units purchased laser grips for their M9’s. The armorers stepped in to forbid their use but we did not know why. However, when they discovered them on the pistols, they acted fast to have them removed.

The shooting community is always looking for an advantage and are willing to test anything that might give them said advantage, even if certain engineering aspects are not fully considered. In the end, however, technique still reins supreme.

How many times have we heard ops being faster with this or that added to the firearm?

Interesting topic.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:
Somewhere there was a post showing old folded slide P series Sigs and the color change of the anodizing on the frame with use.

It was the info on Bruce’s site -
Grayguns inspection but with pics.
Anyone know where that might be?

This is a good quick read for those with aluminum anodized framed guns!

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimipickle:
Agree, I love a police trade in shotgun and glock when I can find them ...

AIM Surplus has a large selection of Glock LEO Trade-ins. They have a large selection for sale at good prices right now. Glock 22's for $299.95, a few others for $399. They even have a SIG P229R DAK for $550.

I've bought 5 SIG Classic P-series pistols from them...4 non-rail 226's and 1 229R, and I've been happy with all my purchases. I'm strongly considering a G-22 for $300 from them.

2 of my AIM SIGs

Most of that wear looks like putting the gun into operation and clearing the gun. And seat belt strikes on the handgrip… good finds!

quote:

There has to some difference in wear to the operation cycle of a firearm when an optic is attached to the rear of the slide or even the mid section. The mass of the slide, even just a few ounces could change wear patterns over time. We should start seeing differences soon as the demand for optics on slides is increasing.

I don't think that the optics are going to induce undue wear to the pistol...the overall wight difference is insignificant (steel had to be removed from the slide to make room for the optic after all) and most guns aren't going to get enough rounds through them to make a difference even if there was one. I just think the optics are going to become deprecated far more quickly than the gun. The life cycles of electronics can be measured in months, while quality mechanical devices like firearms are good for years if not decades.

Due to the purchasing models put in place by distributors, when optics start aging out it may be cheaper for agencies to replace the whole gun rather than just the optic, especially if mounting patterns are a factor. It's hard to say where the optics market will be 3-4 years from now, but at the rate that they are making improvements I'd be willing to bet it's significantly changed from where we are now.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimipickle:

...I love a police trade in shotgun and glock when I can find them...

With a retired mil ID you can buy NIB Glocks for around $400 from Kieslers. Shotguns and rifles too, but I've never bought one from them.

https://kiesler.mydwsitec.com/home/who-we-serve

https://kiesler.mydwsitec.com/...ucts/firearms/pistol

The site does not show prices, but I bought a G-22 a year ago and total cost was $419.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

There has to some difference in wear to the operation cycle of a firearm when an optic is attached to the rear of the slide or even the mid section. The mass of the slide, even just a few ounces could change wear patterns over time. We should start seeing differences soon as the demand for optics on slides is increasing.

I don't think that the optics are going to induce undue wear to the pistol...the overall wight difference is insignificant (steel had to be removed from the slide to make room for the optic after all) and most guns aren't going to get enough rounds through them to make a difference even if there was one. I just think the optics are going to become deprecated far more quickly than the gun. The life cycles of electronics can be measured in months, while quality mechanical devices like firearms are good for years if not decades.

Due to the purchasing models put in place by distributors, when optics start aging out it may be cheaper for agencies to replace the whole gun rather than just the optic, especially if mounting patterns are a factor. It's hard to say where the optics market will be 3-4 years from now, but at the rate that they are making improvements I'd be willing to bet it's significantly changed from where we are now.

Excellent points. Forgot about the removed metal to make space for optic that is made from aluminum. The ACOG, MRDS and RMR’s are reaching 20 years of age…my how time flies.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimipickle:

...I love a police trade in shotgun and glock when I can find them...

With a retired mil ID you can buy NIB Glocks for around $400 from Kieslers. Shotguns and rifles too, but I've never bought one from them.

https://kiesler.mydwsitec.com/home/who-we-serve

https://kiesler.mydwsitec.com/...ucts/firearms/pistol

The site does not show prices, but I bought a G-22 a year ago and total cost was $419.

Thank you!

This is anecdotal, but when I shot open, a Glock was viewed as good for 100k, then scrap it.

A 2011 could go to 250, but most guys retired them at 150-175, to back up duty - some of that could have also been to keep up with technological improvements.

My SVI had the breech block replaced after I put 50k through it - I bought it used. Do not know the prior owners round count. I broke a safety on it, about the same time.

(The breech block showed signs of wear, and it’s a replaceable part on an SVI)

Revolvers would need adjustment after… 10-15, I think.

Sigs were good for 40 - just didn’t work for the serious fellows. They had a 10+ monthly round count.