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This is my first discussion on this forum. I am a retired US Army 11C/MP SRT combat vet (Iraq) and a long time shooter of pistols/handguns. This discussion is not so much a comparison as it is an understanding of a handgun’s service life be it military, police or civilian use. One factor that is not often discussed and contemplated is the service life of handguns. The US military has changed handguns more frequently in modern times than it did between 1917ish and 1987ish when the 1911 was the chosen handgun. I should also mention that the US Marines maintained a 1911 pistol longer and may still have some modern Colts and Kimber in service, so the 1911 has had a long time usage of the platform. However, this does not speak to the service life of each frame, slide and barrel. The M9 has had a 30+ year contract with the military that has recently ended and now Sig is the holder of the contract with the P320/M17-18 models. The LAPD, Chicago PD, NYPD and other large police departments have used Glock as their primary service handgun for over 25 years and counting. The S&W series weapons are also included as being a police department contract holder. So this takes me to my questions. What is the service life of these firearms? So for this discussion, I will refer to the frame, slide and barrel as the service life components of a modern handgun. I consider these components as the non replaceable/durable items of the firearm. Springs, extractors, and Fire-control components are replaceable and maintainable. So, what is wearing out these guns to the point that they are retired, sold off and replaced? 1911- rails wearing out and the slide stop hole in the frame wearing out. M9- aluminum frame wear and slide crack. There were other issues like the locking lug, but that is a replaceable piece. Glock series…unknown, but look at all the police trade-ins on these weapons. What is wearing out? Sig P22? Series… this series is vague to me. What is the service life of these handguns? S&W series, another mystery to me. All polymer frame pistols are the “thing” these days, but they are being retired with a relatively short service life… I own and shoot all of these brands and I do not have the budget to conduct a test to determine the service life of the aforementioned components so I am reaching out to the armorers and long term shooters of these firearms. I am talking about greater than 100k rounds. It should be noted, that the aluminum and polymer frame pistols are an attempt to lower the weight of an all steel firearm while maintaining a durable service life. Are we seeing this? Is this our UNDERSTANDING of light weight frames vs steel frames? Thanks for reading this long post. | ||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Essentially nothing. In Gen 3 and 4 Glocks, the trigger return spring tends to break at around 40,000 rounds.  I'm serious. Look at those trade-ins. There's a lot of shooting left in them. Perhaps some of them might have scuffed-up grips from getting banged around, but vendors aren't selling broken Glocks. In the traditional folded slide guns, the breech block roll pins are supposed to be changed every 5000 rounds, but these pistols can run for 20,000 rounds or more. | |||
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| Member |
Thanks for the comment. Sig P22? Refers to 220, 226, 229, I have purchased a police trade in glock and found them to still be shootable. Mine had a milled breech face that was done by an armorer somewhere, I do not know why. The short service life might be due to budgetary reasons and does not reflect a frame, slide barrel issue. That being said…why are these departments wasting money? Why are they replacing serviceable guns? Or are they still within serviceable tolerance determined by their armorers? I do not know this answer. Thanks again for the comment. | |||
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Member |
This is an interesting topic. Although I have my opinions, I'll let others who know more about the subject than I do post better answers than I can. I will respond to the following comment...
LEO trade-ins are very rarely retired/sold due to being worn out. In fact, a large percentage of them have very little wear on them, which is why LE trade-ins are often sought-after bargains. | |||
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Parabellum, what is a folded slide Sig? | |||
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| Member |
Jump on DTIC if you still have access, there where some service life tests done on the various M9,M10 and M11 competitors to included Glock. IIRC most of your service style pistols will last longer then their user's career. It varies by firing schedule and usage, most of the worn out M9s I've seen had silver frames form being worn and abused. | |||
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| Member |
Agree, I love a police trade in shotgun and glock when I can find them, as to why they were sold off is the mystery. Maybe their arms rooms are out of room? Or, is there some tolerance that is out of spec to their standards? | |||
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| Member |
While the M9 had slide issues on some of their batches, the frame is what I saw as the part getting worn out. They were suffering the same poor slide to frame mating issues as the 1911 but in a less service life. This confirms what many 1911 custom manufacturers state about an aluminum frame 1911. The frames will wear faster. For most, this will not be a problem, but it is a confirmed sorter life span. Does the Sig P220, 226 and 229 have the same issue? Glock rails are steel, which we may find is a better way to lighten a firearm while maintaining an exceptional hard use service life if the polymer frame holds up. I guess we will have to look back at the Glock in…2085? Lol | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
It's the original construction method of the SIG-Sauer pistols which originated with the P-220/P75 and includes the P225, P226 and P228. The slides of these pistols are stampings folded on a mandrel and have a nosepiece welded onto them and a steel breech block pinned in place. The milled slide versions of the P220 and P226 originated with the P229 in the early 1990s and were incorporated into the P220 and P226 in the late 1990s. ____________________________________________________ "I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023 | |||
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| Member |
Thank you, thank you, thank you. That answers that! Also, The chunk of steel held in place by the take down pin is impressive. This is an excellent robust design feature of the P series Sig’s. So the question that remains is the aluminum frame rail service life. Beretta M9’s suffered a short service life on their rails, in my experience. They were still reliable and shot ok, but they were getting noticeably loose. | |||
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| Member |
The firearms industry follows trends & fads just as much as it evolves & innovates. 45ACP, 38 Spl, & .357 Magnum gave way to 9mm, which was replaced by 40S&W and 357 Sig, which fell out of favor back to 9mm. Revolvers fell out of favor to semiautos. Single-stacks fell out of favor to double-stacks. Steel frames fell out of favor to aluminum alloy frames, which fell out of favor to polymer. Hammer fired guns fell out of favor to striker fired guns. Weapon mounted lights became critical gear, which required adopting new guns w/ Pic rails. Right now we're seeing ever increasing number of LEOs transition to RDS on their primary sidearms, which require optic-ready slides. On top of all that, you mention, "wasting money." There's a strange, paradoxical phenomenon that many govt organizations face. If you don't spend all the money we budgeted for you, you won't get as much next time you ask. It's easy to justify & document dept money on new guns, ballistic armor, vehicles, & other toys. You can only get away spending so much on steak houses, golf outings, strip clubs, & alcohol. It's not a matter of guns getting worn out of out of tolerance. It has more to do w/ wanting newer, better stuff, whether better is real or perceived. | |||
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| Member |
This ^ is UNDERSTOOD! And, it is an excellent point. Marketing and budgets rule the day, not service life. This statement may end this discussion. And the world never knew the service life of a firearm…the end | |||
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Member |
The folded Sig slides are carbon steel vs the stainless steel machined slides. I’d imagine with all things being equal, the machined stainless pistols slide would wear better, And there are steel frames in some of the P Series Sig pistols. As for polymer framed guns, certain guns have replaceable/serviceable rails or chassis like the P320, FN509 etc. which I imagine would increase the service life or usable life span of the pistol. With a strict regimen of recoil and other spring changes, barrel changes etc, these pistols can go to 100k+. There is a HK P30 that went in excess of 91k with only 13 total cleanings. https://hk-usa.com/wp-content/...ce-Test_JAN_2011.pdf Joe Back in Tx. | |||
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E tan e epi tas |
While I have seen firearms shot to “destruction” so to speak (out of time revolvers, cracked semi frames or rails etc.) that is by far the exception to the rule. In my experience any modern, hell most guns since the early 1900’s, will last more or less indefinitely with a modicum of care. Now are there shooters who will put 80k-100k rounds through a given gun? Absolutely and they might see issues but as a rule most of the guns I’ve seen put out of service so to speak have been poorly maintained military guns that have seen a lot of use with a lot of different people and competition shooter’s guns. I think you’d be hard pressed to kill a modern piece of tactical Tupperware. Now springs, mags, maybe an extractor or striker/firing pin etc. will break but with some fairly cheap and easy maintenance they are back in use. There are Glock 17’s and HK pistols with like eleventy billion rounds through them with only minor parts or spring breakage. Alloy guns will always tend to be the weakest as steel on alloy will take a toll but even those should last 30k rounds without too much of a sweat. Point is very few folks will shoot a firearm of any quality to an end of life state. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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Not gonna lie... I was disappointed when Q's nickel P228 started failing around 24K rounds, and ultimately, its frame cracked at 25K. I expected much better.  sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/...0601935/m/5690009254 | |||
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Thank you for passing this along. Holy crap! Gonna read thru to see if the frame and slide held up. | |||
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Oriental Redneck |
^^^^ I blame myself, not the gun, for that. I clearly didn't replace the recoil spring at scheduled interval, and let it stay way way beyond 5k. The unnecessary pounding on the frame due to the weakened spring no doubt contributed to its early demise. https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...300011454#4300011454 Q | |||
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Thank you, this is the stuff I was looking for! | |||
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I tip my hat to you Sir, we now know this cuz it was experienced and shared by you. Knowing is the hardest test we face…I know I cannot beat up three large local Hawaii boys when drunk…I know this. Yes, it hurt. | |||
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