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The P30 made it to only 91K+ rounds w/ minimal maintenance, b/c it's one of HK's more affordable models. Check out this 2016-proofed USP9. "During those 200,892 rounds, no springs were replaced— no recoil springs, trigger return springs, or anything." https://www.facebook.com/photo...t=a.4302813509759902 In 2012, there was an interview w/ an HK armorer who said Federal Ammunition sent in a USP45 for inspection. They used it as a test gun, and according to Federal, they had shot 297,000+ rounds through it. Only servicing Federal did was periodic cleaning and the replacing recoil spring. | |||
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I would think that as long as a slide is riding on steel rails, it shouldn't be a huge surprise that a few hundred thousand rounds is very doable even with relatively meager maintenance. Glockaholics and now other poly frame fans seem to crow about this kind of long-term stuff all the time. Though how they can afford the ammo to achieve this kind of longevity is beyond my ability to comprehend. Aluminum alloy frame rails on the other hand... -MG | |||
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Member |
That's impressive. I know my USPc 9mm feels like a tank and I've had plenty of full size USPs, which all felt overbuilt, even the .40 and .45 The USP was originally developed around the .40 SW cartridge, unlike most other .40s which started with a redesigned 9mm. I'd imagine for 9mm this may even increase the serviceable life well past a .45 with 297k. Pretty friekin bomb proof. Joe Back in Tx. | |||
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Member |
I've bought some police turn-ins, both Glocks and SIGs, that I'm pretty sure were either unfired or almost unfired. They just sat in a locker for a few years. Honestly, I find the classic P-series triggers get a lot better with use and the last police turn-in P220 I bought, while as pristine looking as they come, has a stiff trigger, suggesting it's had very few rounds down the pipe. My oldest P220, which I bought new in 1995, went 10k rounds before I had an extractor issue and decided to change all the springs out while I was in there. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
The prices that PDs are paying for guns are not the same price that most folks are paying at the gun counter. We found that it was actually not much more expensive after trade-in credit to buy new guns than it was to keep trying to buy spring kits and other maintenance parts for older, discontinued guns, even though those guns were still serviceable. Even when we wanted to go to optics, it was cheaper to trade in the old guns and buy brand new optic-equipped guns than it was to have slides milled and buy optics, or even just replace the uppers. Parts availability and ongoing support is a big deal. There's liability in issuing a gun to somebody, and it has to be maintained properly, which means periodic inspection and armoring, even if it doesn't get shot a whole lot. Small parts rust, springs wear out, stuff like that. Unfortunately, manufacturers stop selling those parts when they move to a new product line. If you're huge like the US Military or NYPD, you can probably compel the manufacturer to keep producing them, but for the rest of us it's time to trade the guns in and move on. | |||
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Back when a Free Englishman might have a pistol, ranges kept club guns as loaners to shooters waiting on their certificates. A P226 was shown that had 80,000 rounds with only trigger springs broken to replace and stripped grip screw holes. It didn't say how the grips were held on, duct tape, maybe. | |||
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What model Glock did/do you have? | |||
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I find much can be gleaned from the documentation of the US military trials of pistols. Which are available online. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
OP, I was an armorer in the CG. During my time we went from the 1911-M9-P229DAK(40) ..and they are moving to the G19gen5 in the very near future So the 1911 had a 5000 round lifespan where we swapped out all the springs and replaced what needed replacing. This was usually done during an annual inspection by the servicing Gunners Mate. Anything out of spec was sent to the District Armory where real armorers replaced or adjusted them. If it couldn’t be fixed they were sent to SARF (small arms repair facility) At the Navy facility in Crane Indiana. Same with the M9. Once locking blocks began breaking we wound up replacing all of them until the newer radiuses locking blocks were installed. We got a lot of guns that would fail within five years because of the constant immersion in seawater, flushing, etc. and the galvanic reaction of all the parts, steel springs, screws, aluminum frame, etc would wear guns down based mostly on Operations Tempo. Small boat stations do way more boardings than any other units assigned firearms-so their guns wore out first. The SIG P229DAK experienced the same issues as the M9. But it was being planned to be changed after only a few years as the heavier caliber and logistic nightmare of training and maintaining the DAK quals (many people just couldn’t get used to the DAK even after training-and quals proved it). Northeastern units were/are restricted to using frangible ammo at many ranges as the CG doesn’t own many ranges-so units are at the mercy of the local police or public ranges. So the powers that be had been looking at the G19 for those reasons. I don’t know when it’s going to get issued(G19), but it won’t be long. (I’ve been retired since 2011, & my buddy who was in charge of that program just retired last year, so I have no new first hand info) When I was a cop, we had an armorers inspection of our P226s annually. I was in charge of the patrol rifle program (AR15) and did those inspections then also. And another guy did the remaining shotguns. We all just replaced parts as they were needed, and estimated that recoil springs were reaching 5000 or were replaced every 5 years. Unless you had a guy who did a lot of extra shooting and requested a new spring earlier. "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
I love reading stuff like this. How much was your agency out the last time they traded guns? How about the time before that? How about the time before that? 3. That’s how many I’ve been involved in. Berettas to Gen3 Glocks, G3 to G5, and now a slow transition to MOS. How much per unit did you spend? How much for rebuilds?
It becomes fairly apparent when you read some posts on the internet, that some people don’t grasp this simple concept. They “heard” or “read somewhere” or “had a buddy” and their belief is gospel. When it’s actually a false prophet. Our first Beretta to Glock trade cost the agency $25 per gun. Plus new leather. Glock gave us a smoking deal. But, the holsters were offset by free armorers training, parts and some ammo. From G3 to G5, it cost $75 per gun. The latest swap is $125 per gun. Optics are the way. You can’t have a slide cut and refinished for $125. (I know, them newfangled dots are a cool-guy-boys-and-their-toys-deal and iron sight ruled dubya dubya two and it was good enough for grandpa and the nazis) Like it or not, your cherry G22 police trade isn’t representative of all police trade ins. Night sights last between 8-10 years. The cost $85. I can get a new gun for not a lot more. It’s a no brainer. Plus add in that most agencies large and small don’t have maintenance schedules. I’ve seen some swat guns rebuilt 2 or three times before that 8-10 year mark. | |||
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Police trade was a glock 22 40 cal. I sold it to a friend, but it was stolen out of his truck in Texas. It ran great, just had these weird mill marks on the breech face | |||
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Thank you for this information. Salt water is probably the harshest environment for steel firearms. Steel bits in aluminum frames would breed dedicated inspection. Appreciate your service. | |||
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It would appear that there is a potential profit involved with the sell of service pistols…? Endorsements…NYPD, LAPD, and other large PD’s are used as marketing propaganda to where the real profit is at…private market. Same with ammo I bet. We, here in the US, get used police guns from Europe, I wonder if somewhere is getting our used police guns…? Good information | |||
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IIRC, Germany decommissioned about 30,000 police-issue H&K P7s a few years ago. I sure wish they'd make their way over here. But I fear they've been made into manhole covers. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Indeed. Glock is/was the master of it. My first Glock 17 cost me $265 in the early 1990s. Since then, Smith has tried tried the same thing, as has SIG. Glock has made their mark on US law enforcement. They put great pistols at low costs in a lot of holsters early on. | |||
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| Member |
That would be a travesty of epic proportions! I had one when I was 19, saved up for, but sold it to a friend. Wish I had it back. | |||
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Member |
I ran our program for several years...and did all our pistol transitions. From 9mm Glock Gen 2's, to Gen 3 Glock 40's, to Gen 4 Glock 40's, and finally Gen 5 Glock 9mm's. Over that time, I only saw one gun "shot out". An officer who shot competition put about 30K rounds through a Gen 3 Glock .40 model 22 and the locking block's legs sheared off. (It was only having occasional FTF malfunctions...). It was an easy fix and the gun was up and running. I have heard of a Glock 19 with 300K+ rounds through it. There are probably other stories out there... | |||
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Thanks BCJwriter. Overwhelming evidence to support that most weapons will outlast us. | |||
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When I first became interested in firearms at 18 years old way back in 1991 the service life of various pistols was something I was very interested in and studied extensively in the years since. I’ve come to the conclusion that if one buys a quality pistol from a reputable manufacturer be it Beretta, Glock, S&W, SIG, etc. in one of the duty calibers (9, .40, .357 sig, .45) and performs reasonable care, cleans/lubes and replaces cheap springs such as but not limited to recoil springs as manufacturers intend, all these pistols will last far longer than 99.9% of shooters will need. On some websites such as Pistol-Training.com there are a lot of SME’s from military, Law Enforcement, and competition standpoints that either personally put a high volume of rounds through the various makes of pistols and/or oversee large numbers of these pistols and their performance on a large scale in agencies. Reading these accounts gives me confidence in polymer, aluminum alloy, steel framed pistols from Beretta, Glock, S&W, SIG, etc. to be more than durable enough for any use I may need. In addition, if someone has enough money to wear one of these pistols out they easily have enough money to replace the pistol. Furthermore, most people shooting that much have multiple copies of the same pistol. One low mileage proven copy for carry, one for heavy use dry firing and training, and a third unfired backup copy. I have no worries about polymer framed striker fired pistols such as Glocks. I’ve owned over 20 over the years. Nothing beats them as far as simplicity and from a total system approach especially with Law Enforcement Agencies. As for the Beretta 92 series, in the civilian world, they’ve proven themselves more than capable/durable. I wouldn’t judge any pistol on what the worn out abused pistols made to military specifications and given all manner of care or lack of have performed. A high volume shooter such as Ben Stoeger for example has put 100k rounds through several of his Berettas. Linked is a video of him talking about the various high mileage Beretta 92 he has: https://youtu.be/ue8_uN0OIVs Also here’s a link to someone that’s put 37k rounds through a Beretta 92 that’s still completely serviceable. He’s just over 40k now: https://pistol-forum.com/showt...tta-92-at-37k-rounds In addition, on the AR15.com thread from the guy that owns Battlefield Vegas out in Las Vegas there is very good info on the durability of the various makes of pistols. However, they don’t do a lot of preventative maintenance as they have such a busy business and put a lot of rounds through their guns. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Ha...ons/4-160140/?page=1 https://www.thefirearmblog.com...field-las-vegas/amp/ Aluminum Alloy pistols such as Beretta 92 and SIG P226 have proven very durable in the Battlefield Vegas setting also. Here he talks about a Beretta 92 with well over 100k rounds through it when the slide cracked: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Ha...ons/4-160140/?page=7 Here is a thread from SIGForum where various members talk about their round counts. One has 50k though his P226. https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/8930002364/p/1 In addition, here’s the account of someone that fired 50k rounds through a SIG P226 Navy: https://www.m4carbine.net/arch...dex.php/t-39115.html Additionally, I’m a big fan of the HK USP series. As previously mentioned by another poster, there is one with close to 300k rounds used by Federal Ammunition. The dual recoil spring setup really reduces the force of the slide on the frame all but at the cost of a relatively weird recoil impulse/behavior of the pistol. Here’s a test of 50k rounds through a HK45 by ToddG from PT with Larry Vickers firing the last of the 50k rounds: https://www.ammoland.com/2011/...-test/#axzz7xKTw8hki Bottom line is buy a quality pistol, feed it quality ammunition, and take care of it and it will outlast you unless you’re a super high volume shooter in which case you’ll have multiple copies of the pistol model you prefer and the funds to replace them as necessary. "Clear Eyes. Full Hearts. Can't Lose." | |||
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| Member |
Thank you very much for sharing these links as it was what I was looking for. Everyone who has posted here has added something to my quest for understanding. I have fired many, many rounds through the 1911 and M9 and several through glocks and I have found them to be extremely reliable and durable. The M9 was unfortunately farmed out to soft skill soldiers performing duties in Iraq and other locations and these handguns were hot seated over and over with out proper maintenance. They were still serviceable but neglected beyond acceptable limits of Soldiers. Excellent links, thank you. | |||
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