I recall reading about a copper self defense round. A solid bullet, not a hollow point, but said to be more lethal as a result of its higher spin rate, and tumbling upon impact. Does anyone know of this round?

I’m wondering if it would be a good choice for .380. Possibly better penetration than hollow points, and more lethal than ball.

In particular, has anyone experience with such a round in a SIG P-238? As I recall the bullet nose had an odd shape, so I wonder about cycling reliability.

There are several manufacturers of solid copper bullets. Maybe Fort Scott Munitions?

Fort Scott Munitions.

https://fortscottmunitions.com/pages/about-tui

I remember seeing the buzz on this over 10 years ago.

No experience with it.

Underwood monolithic comes to mind. They have several different bullet weights.

The gel testing I've seen for defensive handgun rounds designed to tumble head over heels suck. I'd hazard to guess it's a marketing ploy like shotgun shells with two balls connected with a string or dozens of miniature flichettes, and crap like that.

Regarding the solid fluted spinners, they have some merit, but aren't yet proven, by some reason I forgot, but having to do with the inability to expand, behaving more like a JHP that runs like a solid, failing to expand. I'm guessing the jury is still out on those guys, since no police, government, or military force uses them, along with little balls connected by strings...

Is this the ammunition you're referring to? https://underwoodammo.com/380-...g-self-defense-ammo/ (It says it expands aggressively but nothing about tumbling.) Between the much higher velocity[1], the light weight and the odd shape, I'd be more concerned about it functioning in your gun[2], not to mention pounding your hand or stinging your trigger finger, than how big a hole it makes in gelatin. The only way to determine any of these things is to try it and see.

[1] Is this what you mean by "higher spin rate"? The bullet is moving faster, but it can't rotate any faster than that imparted by the rifling twist.
[2] The most lethal round in the world does no good hung up on a feed ramp or stovepiped in an ejection port. Hence, the need to function test it first.

?Does anyone recollect Air Marshals being armed with something like this. What I seem to recollect is that it will penetrate soft tissue but not hard material (like aircraft fuselage). It was in .357 Sig. Long time since I spoke with an Air Marshal.

Seems like there's better choices...

You may be thinking of Lehigh Defense bullets and loaded ammo. I have loaded the 68 grain bullets for my 380’s, one a P238. They have cycled fine using the data on the Lehigh site.

Reviews are generally rather good.

https://lehighdefense.com/ld-a...d-ammo-380-auto.html

^^^^^^^
Thanks, sourdough. That’s the one I was thinking of, but had forgotten the brand.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

Regarding the solid fluted spinners...

If you're talking about the phillips head screwdriver looking ones, from what I've been told by people with experience shooting critters with them, they performed as well/poorly as ball ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
You may be thinking of Lehigh Defense bullets and loaded ammo. I have loaded the 68 grain bullets for my 380’s, one a P238. They have cycled fine using the data on the Lehigh site.

Reviews are generally rather good.

https://lehighdefense.com/ld-a...d-ammo-380-auto.html

Leigh Defense ammunition are the ONLY rounds I carry for defensive use in .380 ACP pistols (except for my Seecamp LWS380). Besides providing good terminal effects and better penetration than any expanding rounds from other companies, they feed, function, and eject as good or better than any FMJ offerings I've used. These even work great in my Walther PPk and are extremely accurate.

My favorite rounds are the Leigh Defense Xtreme Penetrators weighting 90 grains, but the new lighter (68 grain) versions are also good. Leigh Defense offers the 90 grain bullets for handloaders, but Underwood offers these as fully loaded cartridges.

https://lehighdefense.com/380-...fense-xd-20-box.html

https://underwoodammo.com/380-...n-xtreme-penetrator/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pulicords,

I carry this bullet but in 9mm in my P365 and love it. Another one you might want to look at.

Link below provides gel test results.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38...es-tac-xpd-20-rounds

quote:

Originally posted by sigarmsp226:
I carry this bullet but in 9mm in my P365 and love it. Another one you might want to look at.

Link below provides gel test results.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38...es-tac-xpd-20-rounds

There's two problems with expanding bullets used for defensive purposes in .380 ACP pistols:

1) The relatively low velocity (compared to 9mm Parabellum) provides inconsistent expansion in soft tissue.

2) When expansion does occur, the same low velocity provides insufficient penetration (compared to 9mm Parabellum JHP bullets).

Using a fluted/solid copper/non-expanding round such as those made by Leigh Defense and a few other companies, the flutes provide more tissue disruption than FMJ bullets (and almost as much as JHP rounds) and penetration on par with FMJs. IMHO, these rounds provide the best performance from a caliber that previously was considered marginal with existing conventional bullet designs.

quote:

Originally posted by Devereaux:
?Does anyone recollect Air Marshals being armed with something like this. What I seem to recollect is that it will penetrate soft tissue but not hard material (like aircraft fuselage).

The myths of Air Marshal ammunition have been discussed at length in various forums for decades. I cannot imagine what sort of bullet would do that, except for a “pre-fragmented” bullet like the Glaser Safety Slug, and they didn’t penetrate soft materials all that well. I cannot imagine an all-copper bullet that would perform like that. On the contrary, there are all-copper bullets that are designed to expand in soft tissue, but they’re not going to not penetrate hard material. And as has also been pointed out many times, the concerns about a bullet’s penetrating an aircraft fuselage are greatly overstated, and it’s not as if someone would be sucked out through a bullet hole.

What is pretty well established is that at request of the Air Marshal service, Speer developed a “low penetration” version of their 357 SIG Gold Dot loading. It had a slightly different bullet than the original, evidently to expand more readily, but it was also loaded to a slightly lower velocity. I am aware of three different catalog numbers for 357 SIG Gold Dot loads; two are reportedly much the same as each other, and one is the low penetration version. Years ago when I was trying to stock up on 357 SIG Gold Dots, the LP version was much easier to find than the full power load.

The only 9mm loading with a solid copper bullet that was specifically intended to tumble in a fleshy target that I have ever seen was the Fort Scott Munitions TUI. Other solid copper bullets are either designed to expand normally or have some sort of nose design that is intended to produce a larger temporary cavity in flesh as if they expanded.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes sir. The above post is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
What is pretty well established is that at request of the Air Marshal service, Speer developed a “low penetration” version of their 357 SIG Gold Dot loading. It had a slightly different bullet than the original, evidently to expand more readily, but it was also loaded to a slightly lower velocity. I am aware of three different catalog numbers for 357 SIG Gold Dot loads; two are reportedly much the same as each other, and one is the low penetration version. Years ago when I was trying to stock up on 357 SIG Gold Dots, the LP version was much easier to find than the full power load.

So essentially a 9mm+p? But wider case so less capacity, same neck tension shortcomings as full-house .357 Sig, and just as expensive? Lol...sounds just like something the government would do! . I'd be curious to see the numbers and gel performance figures of that load to see just how close it really came to a modern 9mm+p like the 124gr HST loading.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
So essentially a 9mm+p?

Ah, no.
Without trying to be exact by finding my measured velocities of the same loads from the same type guns, the “low” or “limited” penetration load drives a 125 grain bullet well over 100 fps faster than something like the 124 grain +P Gold Dot. The full power 357 GD’s velocity is maybe 150+ fps faster than the +P 9mm load.

In terms of kinetic energy, a 124 grain bullet at 1220 fps has about 410 foot-pounds. A 125 grain bullet at 1350 fps (the LP load) has 500+ ft-lb, or over 20% more energy.

(If I get ambitious at some point, I will try to find some specifics, but the above examples are close.)

Added:
I looked up some of my personal velocity measurement figures, and although I didn’t record the catalog numbers for my earliest measurements of 125 grain Gold Dot 357 SIG ammunition, based on their velocities it’s evident that I was measuring the limited penetration load (that was before I knew there were two Gold Dot varieties). From a P229 (3.9" barrel) the velocity averaged about 1340 fps. By comparison, from a Glock 45 (~4" barrel) the Speer 9mm +P 124 grain Gold Dot load averaged ~1200 fps.

Using the above figures, the energy of the 9mm load was 396 ft-lb, and the energy of the LP 357 load was 498 ft-lb, or about 25% greater than that of the 9mm.

As I recall, the Federal Air Marshals used P229 pistols when their cartridge of choice was the 357 SIG. As I understand it, they switched to 9mm pistols some years ago. Velocities from guns with longer barrels were of course a bit higher on average, as were velocities of the less common non-LP 357 SIG load. The last time I measured the full power, non-LP 357 load, it averaged 1463 fps / 594 ft-lb from a full size P320, and 1393 fps / 538 ft-lb from a P320 “Carry” model (3.9" barrel).

And as a final comparison, among 357 S&W Magnum loads the Federal 125 grain JHP “Classic” had one of the best performance reputations when LEOs used revolvers. From a 4" S&W model 686 I measured its velocity at 1341 fps for a muzzle energy of 499 ft-lb, or virtually the same as the limited penetration 357 SIG load from a SIG P229.

And now back to the discussion of solid copper bullets.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
<snip>
And now back to the discussion of solid copper bullets.

Thank you sir.

I’m looking for a .380 cartridge that’s more lethal than ball, with better penetration than most hollow points, and cycles reliably in my P238.

So I’m wondering if Lehigh with 68 grain copper bullets might be that happy compromise.

No cartridge is best for all situations, so, yes, compromise.

Have you seen this video? That guy’s commentary and ideas* annoy me so much that I have stopped watching his stuff, but the gel test shown does seem to be valid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...XP%20bullet%20offers.

Based on what you’re seeking, the Lehigh does seem to be a good choice.

* 18 inches of penetration is ideal, but 19" is too much and the reason why we shouldn’t choose that round‽ Ho Lee Chit!