quote:

Originally posted by ARMT Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Now it's time to see how many of those "Damn it, SIG, make a 10mm" people put their money where their mouths are.

Oat

That's exactly what I thought when I read about this.

Now, hopefully, this'll keep those 10mm Mafia types quiet!

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Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match

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Originally posted by nwohsy:
What would be the cost for a frame? I don't have a stainless donor gun, so this would have to be a ground up build for me.

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Originally posted by Flork:

quote:

Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match

Rob,

You goin to the IDPA match this weekend?? I was gonna go, but I got roped into being on patrol this weekend and being the bouncer at the beer garden for the Fossil County Fair. Torie might go to the match without me though.

The prototype will not be ready be the September IDPA match, but I hope to have it for other bigger occasions in the near future.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Stainless frame Sig P220 which would need to be supplied by the customer or purchased from us by the customer for retail price.

Note that it says "stainless frame ... P220," not "stainless P220 frame."
I interpret that as saying the customer must supply a complete P220ST pistol for the project or purchase a complete pistol from Grayguns.

quote:

Originally posted by treelogger:
For a California resident: To start this project, I would need to supply a Sig 220 with a stainless steel frame. That's because I can't have GGI buy the 220 in Oregon, modify and, and then transfer it across state lines to a California FFL, because a 220 in 10mm is not on the California Roster of handguns, therefore it can not be imported into the state.

But what if I don't have a 220 in stainless yet? That's where the problem arises. On the roster, there are two stainless frame models: The "P220 (Stainless) Sport / Stainless Steel" (which has a 5.5inch barrel and long slide and is therefore not eligible for this conversion), and the "P220 (Stainless) / Stainless Steel" with the 4.4 inch barrel (that's probably what's colloquially known as the P220ST).

The problem is: As far as I can see, neither of those two models is sold by Sigarms any longer. On Sigarms web site, the only 220 with a stainless frame I can find is the 220 Elite Stainless, which is not (and probably will not be) California approved.

If this analysis is correct, then the only way for a Californian to participate in this would be to find a stainless 220 on the used market (perhaps including Sig CPO, but I find it unlikely to find a stainless gun among the law enforcement trade-ins).

I'm not sure if Sigarms has CPOs which are all stainless models, but you might call and ask.

We are more than willing to do the 10mm conversion on the 5" barrel gun. We will have to find out how much more expensive the barrel will be, but that can be done relatively easily. We would also need to add some weight to the slide to make the gun cycle properly, but we're up for it. Are you seriously interrested in the conversion?

Is this correct?

While we are at it: How difficult would it be to do have Bar-Sto make a few 5.5" barrels, and perform the conversion on the long-slide version of the P220 stainless?

quote:

Originally posted by Flork:

quote:

Originally posted by Dobbler:
I think you should bring a prototype to the September IDPA match

Rob,

You goin to the IDPA match this weekend?? I was gonna go, but I got roped into being on patrol this weekend and being the bouncer at the beer garden for the Fossil County Fair. Torie might go to the match without me though.

The prototype will not be ready be the September IDPA match, but I hope to have it for other bigger occasions in the near future.

quote:

Originally posted by Xer0:
Rather than doing all the fancy work on the breech face of the P220 slide, wouldn't it have been easier to just mill out the area in a stainless slide amd put in the breech block of a p220 38 super? The rim specifications are very close (.406 for 38 super versus .425 for 10mm).

With the 38 super breech block out of the slide, its much easier to mill a an extra .019 out of sides of the 38 super breech face than having to weld and recut the hard-to-reach internal area of a stainless slide (not to mention custom extractor requirements). If the fear would be inset breech block movement, then small locking engagements could easily be milled into the slide cut that match and engage similar cuts in the the 38 super breech block. This combo would still be heavier than a standard folded slide to retain the mass needed for 10mm lockup.

In addition, the 38 super extractor would probably need no work to work properly (it's not going to be able to tell the difference beteen .0095 inch (1/2 radius difference between the 2 cartridges. Then just put the p220 38 super ejector on the stainless frame.

As it's eaier to mill out a nice tight square in the slide, the 38 super breech block could be nice and tight. With a simple switch to a the slightly larger diameter solid pin would ensure no movement under firing.

The 38 super mags will proably hold the 10mm cartridge just fine, so very minimal modification should be needed (although the frame would need to be punched out in grip area to accomidate the 38 super mags (which you probably have to do anyways for custom mags as the cartridge length is longer than the .45.

A higher rated recoil spring with heavy guide rod would help tame the 10mm full-house loads. This would seem to be an easier solution than all the custom work directly on the breech face and needing custom extractors. Of course it's all conjecture..

Heck, it would seem easier to easier (re: cheaper) to mill a brand new custom copy of 38 super breech block (in 10mm breech face dimensions) that fits into a custom cutout of a stainless slide, than play with weldup and recut and other custom work you need to do on the .45 breech face and extractor. Could even make it of tungsten to add more lockup mass. Kinda of a "why redesign the wheel thing" and then parts availability would also go up if many interchanged (like extractors and magazines).

Just my two cents! Would still love to have one...

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Originally posted by Grayguns:
Hiya! Great ideas, thank you. Your thoughts give me an opportunity to discuss what we can reveal about our approach and explain some whys and hows.

First, the slide. Besides being much too light for this application, the older stamped steel slides flex an amazing amount under recoil. I wouldn't have believed how much they flex if I hadn't watched high speed videos of this characteristic at SIGARMS.

They certainly lack the stiffness to handle the 10mm Norma cartridge. Even though we've rated our pistol for continuous use with more moderate defensive factory loads of less that 210 power factor, our 10mm must still be able to handle full-on 10mm Norma stuff on occasion, else we shouldn't lay claim as the keepers of the true 10mm faith.

Milling out a stainless slide to accept an old school .38 Super breech block would be a very, very difficult job to execute perfectly, and it would reintroduce some of the flexing issues we need to avoid. We thought of this and rejected it for that and other reasons, but it's a logical idea on it's (breech)face.

The current extractor design used in all internal-extractor P-series pistols is something we have been working to improve, and I'm pleased to report as a side note that we're winning that battle.

Now that we have a highly reliable replacement for the .45's going into production, it was easy enough to develop a version specifically for our 10mm project. The old-school extractor system from the stamped slides won't exert quite enough tension for our needs as-is, and the current SIG extractor can't be tensioned enough to be adequately reliable without inducing feeding malfunctions. Thus, there's no adavantage for us to adapt a factory part as a cost-saving compromise.

During a somewhat eccentric lifetime devoted to learning odd things, I did spend time in college getting a minor degree in welding metallurgy, and was a nuclear certified welder back in the day. As it happens, Flork is an aerospace EDM machinist of high order. The very simple breechface spacing modification we've worked out is well within our capabilities and will not compromise the integrity of the slide in any way. What it does do is allow us to utilize an otherwise very suitable slide that already fits your frame and holster, and permits us to keep the cost of this conversion reasonable and accessible to the throngs of Forum members who've called for a 10mm SIG.

Mags: Again, why compromise? Our goal isn't to produce a pistol for a price, but to produce a fully proven, reliable service pistol that fulfills the promise of both the excellent P220 Stainless and the 10mm cartridge. That means we needed a magazine that truly fits the pistol and properly times, positions and supports the touchy 10mm round. If this pistol isn't reliable, it's not worth building.

We're making mags from proper 10mm 1911 blanks and adapting the frame to accept them perfectly. For what they are, these mags should be a strong value that will help ensure reliability.

We're not redesiging the wheel here. We're just making it round.

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Shinobi:
This question may have been posed before so I apologize in advance if this is a repeat. I was wondering if the P220 platform was chosen because of the length needed for slide travel or would this conversion be possible on a P226 stainless in .40 ? I like the idea of a double stacked magazine personally. However I wouldn't go as far as to sacrifice safety of a firearm for capacity. I just wish I could get a 15 round 10mm sig like glock that isnt a glock .

I do give major cudos to GGI for bringing use the first 10mm sig ever I imagine alot of time went into this project. I may be nabbing up a P220 Elite to get this conversion done in the future.

Regards,

Shin

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
Can you give us a price for a Gray Guns supplied stainless 220 plus the standard ($992) package?

I would like to be able to just order the complete project from you; it would be nice to know the total cost for that up front.

quote:

Originally posted by Shinobi:
... I do give major cudos to GGI for bringing use the first 10mm sig ever ...