My department had some extra handgun training today due to the increased number of armed encounters (shootings) we have had lately. I've been carrying Glock 17's for years on duty, currently a Gen 5 with Ameriglo "Cap" sights. Training is pushing for us to switch to pistols with Red Dots. As of now we are approved for 9mm only- Glock MOS, Sig P320, and SW M&P Core pistols with either an RMR, Leupold Delta Point Pro, or Sig Romeo. Pistol wise I am somewhat up in the air. I shoot Glocks "OK", seem to shoot the M&P and SIG both better. I think it has to do with the grip angles and my finding my sight picture much quicker and easier, but this is with irons. RDS wise the Sig is a no go- they have been proving to be unreliable and were originally only approved because guys were taking advantage of the RX packages Sig offered us. The most popular being used here is a G19, 17, or 45 with an RMR. So I am here to listen to some wisdom from those with experience in this matter. I have read other threads on pistols with RDS but most are biased towards whats good for competition or concealed carry, not uniform patrol use. Does anybody here carry a P320 with an RMR? I know they are factory cut for the Romeo or Leupold so I haven't seen too many. Anybody carry an M&P Core? Any on duty experience with a Leupold?
Thanks in advance for your insight.

Be prepared that there will be some to show up in this thread to tell you that you are a fool for considering the dot because grand daddy RACKED them up like cord wood with iron sights. It seems like that clouds the discussion each time that LE dot use comes up.

I’m a big fan of the Romeo 1. But, I’m one of the decision makers in a large agency. We only authorize the RMR06 and RMR07. This week we are also doing training. I’m watching thousands of rounds go down range each day. The RMRs keep ticking. In fairness, I’ve never seen a problem with the Romeos. But the type 2 RMR is a know quantity. When I had to start making decisions for an agency as a whole, I landed on the RMR. The officers get a choice in dot size only.

Word of advice though- as soon as you decide what gun you are going with, if you want a Safariland holster, order it immediately. It will take about 90 days to get to your hands.

I am currently carrying a G17.4 with an RMR. I had my slide milled for the Agency Arms AOS system and have been very happy with it. The RMR is really the standard by which all others are judged. If you use a Glock MOS I would suggest this after market plate...

http://www.chpws.com/product/t...-released-april-2020

As far as training do lots of dry fire draw practice before you go live and be patient. It was very humbling at first.

Another great resource for online training tips on going to a red dot is the Sage Dynamics videos on YouTube. Aaron Cowen does a lot of videos on how to train using a red dot. (He also has a traveling training class....)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bcjwriter,

I definitely think the RMR 06 will be the way to go for reliability and ruggedness (been reading lots of reviews tonite- working midnite shift and dead quiet here) -and I will be ordering a CHPW adapter plate - thanks for the tip bcjwriter
Jerry- As far as the holster, my agency supplies them and keeps the Glock ones in stock, but would order one for Sig or S&W as soon as I buy a pistol. Still need to make that decision though-

We started issuing the RM01 this year on our gen4 Glock 31s. I got six of us switched over before COVID hit and we're limiting training.

So if someone wants to switch now, I will schedule a one on one.

I've had no issues with mine so far. I'm the only one that got my slide milled (before the chief banned milling). Everyone else has the Trijicon RM44 plate.

Does it improve scores overall? Like—does it make someone who barely passes on a good day shoot significantly better?

I don’t see my agency going to those anytime soon, but I know we have recruits AND seasoned officers who fail every year.

I don't know that it will help people from failing quals but from the few times I played with them up to now they definitely help with my older eyes. As I've aged I've been finding it harder to focus on that front sight. I have to use reading glasses to read anything that close so I'm not surprised by it. But from what I understand up to now is that I'm looking through the sight and focusing on the target and not the red dot. In that respect it made acquiring my target easier. RDS instructors please tell me if this is right-

I'm happy with the Sig RX package (compact.) The sights are prominent, which
I find reassuring as I still lack full confidence in electronic sight systems. The dot is fast to pick up, and co-witnessing if you have time is very helpful for accuracy.

I'll go with the Sig 320 too.. I have a compact model with the factory reddot and it is absolutely dead on...

I have not used a dot on a pistol but the one bit of advice told me by folks who did transition is to do LOTS of presentations because finding the dot early on can be difficult for some folks.

That said I don’t think I have ever talked to anybody who disliked shooting with them once they got it down.

If you go with a Glock MOS with RMR, take a look at this plate
https://www.forwardcontrolsdes...OPF-G-RMR_p_224.html

Machined from steel, with very tight tolerances. This is the route I will be going for MOS slides, although I prefer aftermarket milling.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
Does it improve scores overall? Like—does it make someone who barely passes on a good day shoot significantly better?

I don’t see my agency going to those anytime soon, but I know we have recruits AND seasoned officers who fail every year.

I have limited experience with red dots on duty guns. But most of it is with teaching new cadets.

In my experience, red dots require solid grip/draw/presentation fundamentals, otherwise they spend way too much time hunting for the dot. That mirrors many of the complaints I've seen online from less skilled shooters who decide they want a handgun with a red dot, and then who get frustrated and complain that they can't find the dot when drawing and presenting the gun.

They seem to make moderately skilled shooters better/faster, but weak shooters can struggle even further with them.

I'm beginning to think that starting someone who's brand new to handguns on an iron sighted pistol first could be a better idea, and then transition to a red dot once they've mastered the shooting fundamentals.

Look at the red dot stuff from Sage Dynamics on YouTube and on their website. They strongly push the RMR, Aimpoint Acro, and Holosun 507C/508T. I know there Holosun is not on your list, but it may be something to bring to your instructor cadre's attention. For what it's worth, I've sent probably upwards of 20 507Cs to people at Phoenix, AZ PD (I have a former coworker who works there now and everybody knows he "has a guy"). The Holosuns are the most popular optic there. I've probably sent four or five RMRs and the rest Holosun.

If using a Glock MOS, also consider C&H Precision Weapons Systems for an improved plate. Their newest plate adds removable, press-fit screw bosses, so if you cross thread one or something, you don't have to toss the whole plate. They also fill the cutout in the slide better. 10-8 Performance posted a video on the plate the other day.

As far as "running the dot" goes, there is a learning curve and it is not insurmountable. Lots of dry practice will help with the draw and acquisition process. It will make you a better iron sight shooter because it will tune up your biomechanics of aligning body, gun, and eyes when you draw. That will translate back to irons. You will see an increase in precision - your group sizes will get dramatically better with the fine print of aim. If you're honest with yourself, you'll also learn a lot about your trigger control.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
We started issuing the RM01 this year on our gen4 Glock 31s. I got six of us switched over before COVID hit and we're limiting training.

So if someone wants to switch now, I will schedule a one on one.

I've had no issues with mine so far. I'm the only one that got my slide milled (before the chief banned milling). Everyone else has the Trijicon RM44 plate.

What are they doing for backup irons? I see the plate uses the rear sight dovetail, and the RM44 doesn't appear to have integral sights built into it.

I have not yet had the opportunity to spend any significant time playing with an RDS on a handgun, but I've been watching them with interest. A buddy from the local SO has one mounted on his personal G45 with a similar plate system to what you described, and we have been playing with it on slow nights down at their Dept. Range (or we were before covid hit and they banned all "congregating"...So no eating together, talking, or training, even though we're still all together on calls). The plate was less than satisfactory...there wasn't a lot of thread engagement for the screws and the optic kept working loose even after he loctited it...it's ok for what we are doing, but I wouldn't trust my life to it. Granted, his is a knock-off, not the actual trijicon product, so maybe that one is better. Milling still seems like a much better option, though.

Also, how are you guys training to deal with water or fog on the lens? Do you aim over the top of the sight, or are there other techniques for this?

Like I said, I haven't ad a ton of opportunity to play with one yet, but I'm intrigued by the concept. I was impressed with how tight I was able to group using the RDS, and I agree with others who stated that acquiring the dot on the draw takes some practice. I see these becoming a lot more mainstream, and am very interested in how departments are using and training on them, so I'll continue to follow this thread with interest.

Chief banned milling which was originally approved. Mine has the iron sights on it still but I can barely see them. If the sight goes down I'm back to point shooting. Our expected engagement distances are real close anyway. I might swap in suppressor height sights. I tried them before on my 35 with an RMR but hated it. It got in the way.

I've actually removed the front sight on some guns because they were having issues focusing on it when trying to use the RDS.

I tried to make this completely optional and recommended slide milling to everyone that wanted one. Then the chief decided to make it mandatory using the plate against my objections. He won't send us to training and decided to do this after reading one magazine article.

only 158 weeks to go...

The city paid for everything. Except my slide milling.

I realize I may be in the minority here, but the first pistol mounted optic that I have ever considered a viable option for duty is the Aimpoint ACRO. Our team did a fair amount of testing with the Trijicon RMR and others, and the conclusion was an open reflex sight has too much potential for operational failure due to occlusion from rain/fogging/moisture and debris.

Some guys on the team disagree and are still running a RMR on their Gen4 G17s, and swear by them, but my own personal opinion due to admittedly limited exposure in testing is a sealed RMR is the way to go. Don’t misunderstand me though, I have no question pistol mounted reflex sites are the way of the future, it’s just that we’re only now arriving.

In another thread I mentioned that a
a few years ago I took a Shooting Course titled Pistol Red Dots at the Police Academy that was Sponsored by Trijicon.

I am not a terrific shot and I have to work hard to be decent but it was a blast and very very humbling. There were 9 other individuals in the class who were from agencies located all throughout Virginia. I would say over half of those if not more were firearm instructors and/or SWAT team members.

By the end of the course I was hitting plates on the steel tree at a consistent pace.

I had zero experience with any type of sighting system on a pistol other than iron sights so I spent most of the course hunting for the dot.
Along with fighting the E2 grip on a Sig P229)

For me it would take consistent dry fire practice which would entail perfecting my grip/draw presentation then acquiring the dot to be really comfortable carrying one on duty.


I also found that when I would shoot for time or against another officer on a drill I would do ten times better than when we shot for distance or the VA qualification course. I had less time to think about every little detail and in all honesty I have a horrendous habit of overthinking everything to death whether it is before, during or after an event.

I would like to try the course again using a Smith and Wesson MP9 or MP40 and see how I would do.

Two things that mitigate screws working loose are:

1) On a milled gun, a very tight fit between the optic and slide.

2) On a milled gun or a modular (MOS, CORE, etc.) gun, at least with the RMR, recoil bosses that absorb recoil without using the screws themselves to absorb shock.

Any mount that secures the optic by basically sandwiching it to itself with screws is going to fail and work loose.

For Glock MOS guns, you really owe it to yourself to look at aftermarket plates. C&H (referenced in my post above) increases the number of engaged threads by using an elevated post for the screws. They get 6-7 threads of engagement versus 2-3 with the factory plate.

Brownells slides combine a tight optic fit and elevated screw posts.

There are lots of options out there but you owe it to yourself to make sure the screws aren't being stressed. I would also consider VibraTite over Loctite for this application.

That's why I went with maple leaf. they have recoil bosses. and a generous mil/le discount.

IM running a Gen 15 19 with the RMR type 2 with a 3.25 dot and the CHPW adapter plate. I found the screws on the optic loosened up after about 3000 rounds running the stock MOS system. The CHPW seems to be a much better mounting set up YMMV.