JLJONES: Sounds familiar, when I went through a
police rifle instructor course a few years ago the instructor was an old school Marine Vietnam Vet. First day of class he walked around and told everyone to take off any optics they had mounted. Said the entire course will be with iron sights and you will see why you all don’t need them! I shot fine and accurate but as soon as I graduated I put my T2 right back on. Your sight picture and acquisition is just much faster.

I like red dots... they are a fun toy... but I would never rely on a battery powered device for my life....

in reading some of the previous post.... I can see the situation:

"excuse me bad guy or evil terrorist while I ... wipe off my lens... & change my battery.."

And I won't get into just how stupid and unsafe putting a flash light on the end of a gun is....

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Be prepared that there will be some to show up in this thread to tell you that you are a fool for considering the dot because grand daddy RACKED them up like cord wood with iron sights. It seems like that clouds the discussion each time that LE dot use comes up.

From page one. At least you “streets will run red with blood” types are consistent.

This is like watching cavemen scream at thunder.

quote:

Originally posted by njauto:
when I went through a police rifle instructor course ... told everyone to take off any optics they had mounted.

I don’t know what the circumstances were and how important it was to you to attend the course, but had something like that happened to me, I’d have been tempted to pick up all my stuff and walk out (as I’ve done more than once when I realized what sort of instructor was teaching the class). I’m more than willing to consider ideas that don’t match my own, but there are limits.

If anyone is so hidebound, and yes, stupid, as to believe that law enforcement officers shouldn’t use optical sights on their patrol rifles in this day and age, I can only imagine what other bizarre ideas he would be wasting my time with. I have taught experienced military veterans who used ARs without optical sights (one even insisted that he could do better that way), and none of them performed as well as previous novices using some sort of optics.

LEOs need to be familiar with shooting their rifles if their optics go down, but to teach no-optics use as a primary method is ridiculous.

This was not an uncommon thing. Our academy required removal of the dot from the rifle as well up until two years ago for the reasons mentioned.

The hugely funny part was when two KSP SRT guys showed up to a class and Baird told them they had to remove their optics. After some intense discussion, they politely told him to go fuck himself and left. If we wanted the hours to stay certified, we had to play by their rules.

Now, they are allowing RDS on pistols in academy classes as long as they are issued. I found it to be really dumb that for two decades the academy strictly gave you what they thought you needed, not what you actually needed. We used to joke it was the best training out there circa 1980. Because that’s where it stopped evolving. I taught a couple of days at the academy a few months back and that mentality is now gone.

For those of you who have transitioned to handgun RDS for duty, how did that come about? Was it driven by the road guys, the instructors, or did it come down from the top? If there was opposition, how did you work through that?

The big hurdles I see for us are the cost, as well as maybe a little bit of the "back in my day" mentality. I also can forsee the technical and reliability arguments coming up, which I think this thread has pretty well addressed.

I'm pretty sure I can get our road supervisor on board...he'd expressed an interest in them 5 or 6 years ago before the tech had even matured to where it's at now. But l still need to get my hands on one and spend some time with it before I can even bring it up.

I spent two years making sure that it was what I wanted to do on the FI end. We shot the guns, messed with different sights, gun combos, etc. And then I wrote a proposal based upon what we wanted, plus about 50 percent. Now, everything I suggested in my proposal was 100 percent ok by existing policy. It didn't require anything more other than adding the specific RDS policy. Simultaneously, I started introducing fam fires during training days. That gave me a really good metric of how people felt.

We were on track to get the project off the ground, got my figures on additional costs, and figured the green light was coming when a reserve showed up for his scheduled range date........with a G45 and RMR. It was an "agency approved" pistol. He had bought his own 6360RDS Safariland and a RMR06. Policy did not say he couldn't have it. So, I went to my boss and said "Hey man, we have an issue". I explained to him what was going on and suggested that we just roll with it as it was the direction we were going. So, from here on out, every new replacement gun we buy will be a MOS. Every replacement Safariland 6360 we buy will be a RDS. The cost difference between the 6360 and 6360RDS was like $18 I think.

If I can help you out, hit me up.

Jones, thanks for the info...I really like the idea of familiarization trigger time during range days. I'll admit that getting to shoot my buddy's G45 with RDS is what really got the wheels turning in my head. I'm sure letting people (especially admin) put their hands on one and actually shoot it might grease the wheels a little bit towards adopting (or at least allowing) them. We have a uniform allowance, so I could see some guys springing for them on their own if the PD doesn't want to pay for it across the board.

Are you guys phasing them in as equipment gets replaced, or are you planning to do a comprehensive replacement all at once? Also, do the Safariland duty holsters for the RDS guns also work for the guns that aren't so equipped?

My chief read a magazine article, saw $20k in the budget he had to spend before year’s end and he always wanted one so he said buy them now and quick. Worry about everything else later.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by njauto:
when I went through a police rifle instructor course ... told everyone to take off any optics they had mounted.

I don’t know what the circumstances were and how important it was to you to attend the course, but had something like that happened to me, I’d have been tempted to pick up all my stuff and walk out (as I’ve done more than once when I realized what sort of instructor was teaching the class). I’m more than willing to consider ideas that don’t match my own, but there are limits.

If anyone is so hidebound, and yes, stupid, as to believe that law enforcement officers shouldn’t use optical sights on their patrol rifles in this day and age, I can only imagine what other bizarre ideas he would be wasting my time with. I have taught experienced military veterans who used ARs without optical sights (one even insisted that he could do better that way), and none of them performed as well as previous novices using some sort of optics.

LEOs need to be familiar with shooting their rifles if their optics go down, but to teach no-optics use as a primary method is ridiculous.

My dept requires you to complete the school with iron sights first. You can add an approved red dot afterwards and requalify but it has to co-witness in case the optic fails.
The good thing is you have to remove the optic to qualify with iron sights every year. Then you can reinstall the optic and requalify with the optic again.
Yes its redundant but it's more shooting which is fine with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
My chief read a magazine article, saw $20k in the budget he had to spend before year’s end and he always wanted one so he said buy them now and quick. Worry about everything else later.

Sometimes the budget cycle really does work out in your favor .

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

Are you guys phasing them in as equipment gets replaced, or are you planning to do a comprehensive replacement all at once? Also, do the Safariland duty holsters for the RDS guns also work for the guns that aren't so equipped?

Yes. As we buy replacement guns and holsters (around 5 at a time), we are buying MOS guns and 6360RDS holsters. Our standard set up (Glock 17 and Trijicon HD sights) fit just fine without the RDS.

IIRC, you are pretty close to me. Do you guys buy from Keislers? I can give you all my work up on the financials.

quote:

IIRC, you are pretty close to me. Do you guys buy from Keislers? I can give you all my work up on the financials

Yep, we're in northern Indiana, so just one state away. We have an account with Keislers, and have bought from them in the past. We are issuing P320 Carry models in 9mm. If you wouldn't mind e-mailing me those (it's in my profile), that would be awesome!

I run a Sig X-Carry with a Romeo and have for about a year and a half. Bunch of rounds through it and I carry a big light on the bottom of it so I can see at night. As my senior Sgt says if you don’t like it respectfully .... you. We are also allowed sig, Smith and Glock. We had some issues with the Romeo initially but I haven’t with mine. One trijicon went down but I think that kid ate lead paint as a child. I also run a sub compact p320 with leupold dpp and a new sig p365xl with zero but I haven’t been able to shoot it yet. We sent a group of instructors through the Sage Dynamics course they liked it I couldnt go because of another work thing. My email is in my profile I can try get you some of the literature. I can tell you we have a practical, forward thinking and progressive range and range master. FWIW.

There were several factors involved in my decision to retire from LEO-ing in early 2018. One of those factors was that my eyes were beginning to need some help, in order to see clearly. Shooting the qual was not the problem, as the center of a reduced B-27 was easy; it was seeing details clearly under street conditions. At the time, only patrol rifles could have optics.

I cannot say which straw was “the” one that finally broke this camel’s back, but I will say that being able to use a high-quality red-dot optic, on a pistol, might well have encouraged me to stick around for another few years.

(What actually vexed me, even more, however, was my frustration in trying to get into one of the too-few classes that would enable me to start using a white light on my duty or secondary pistols. I had used WMLs on my P229R and 870, until a rule change prohibited WMLs. After several years of “study,” WML rules and training were established.)

I recently obtained a G45 slide, milled for an Aimpoint ACRO P-1, which I have used very little, thus far, but one thing is certain; if I were to come out of retirement, and wear a badge again, I would certainly want to use my G19x, with this G45 slide and Aimpoint, as a duty pistol. The contrast of the red dot, against most backgrounds, and especially in low light, helps me make better-informed shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Alyron:
Any on duty experience with a Leupold?
.

I have no experience with Leupold, but have seen some troubling anecdotes about battery life and long-term durability. I would not want to buy Leupold Deltapoint-series for duty/defense, without doing plenty of research.

My big bitch with the DPP is the idiotic brightness adjustment via a single button that someone saw fit to place right by the emitter so you have to press, move finger, press, move finger, press move finger, etc. It always seems like you're going the wrong direction in brightness, too.

Add that to the taller profile and somewhat poor (compared to Trijicon and Holosun) battery life, and I just don't see it.

The big window is nice, though.

After asking around at my department I couldn't find anyone that carried the DPP on duty. A few guys use them for competition but even those guys use RMRs on duty. The few that used the Romeos liked them but most of the guys are on their second or third sight. That's why UPS should be showing up this week with the 2 RMR 06's I ordered.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I like red dots... they are a fun toy... but I would never rely on a battery powered device for my life....

in reading some of the previous post.... I can see the situation:

"excuse me bad guy or evil terrorist while I ... wipe off my lens... & change my battery.."

And I won't get into just how stupid and unsafe putting a flash light on the end of a gun is....

A properly set-up red dot optic system is not the only sighting system available to the well-prepared defender.

A properly-used white light, on a defensive firearm, is a tremendous force multiplier, when properly executed, by a defender who understands the tactics of fighting with light. I am not saying that anyone should drink the whole Surefire kool-aid, but white light matters, in the darkness. The hand-held light is most important, and ideally, one should have a second hand-held, too, but the weapon-mounted light has advantages that I will not ignore.

Let’s keep in mind, the context of the original post in this thread, a law enforcement/first-responder, who has a duty to go forth, and seek trouble. This is different from a typical home-defense scenario, and the typical parking lot robbery scenario, deserve their own threads, in the appropriate section of the forum.