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Giftedly Outspoken |
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politi...ng-holster-1.5903723 Also, Sig's Statement on the issue (I did not type it in all caps it is a copy and paste): SIG’s Statement on the story NEWINGTON, N.H., (FEBRUARY 5, 2021) – SIG SAUER IS WORKING WITH CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM) TO RESOLVE AN INCIDENT INVOLVING THE UNINTENDED DISCHARGE OF A P320. AN INACCURATE AND INCOMPLETE REPORT OF THIS INCIDENT WAS RECENTLY PUBLISHED IN THE CANADIAN MEDIA THAT CALLED INTO QUESTION THE SAFETY OF THE P320. WHILE THIS INCIDENT OCCURRED MONTHS AGO, THIS ERRONEOUS MEDIA REPORT IS DRIVEN BY MULTIPLE SOURCES, INCLUDING OUR COMPETITORS, AND COINCIDES WITH THE IMMINENT RELEASE OF OTHER CANADIAN MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TENDERS, INDICATING THE TIMING OF ITS RELEASE IS AN ATTEMPT TO IMPROPERLY INFLUENCE THE PROCUREMENTS. THE FIREARM INVOLVED HAS BEEN EXTENSIVELY TESTED BY SIG SAUER AND IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE SAFE. THE INVESTIGATION REVEALED THE USE OF AN INCORRECT HOLSTER NOT DESIGNED FOR A P320. THE USE OF A MODIFIED P226 HOLSTER CREATED AN UNSAFE CONDITION BY ALLOWING A FOREIGN OBJECT TO ENTER THE HOLSTER, CAUSING THE UNINTENDED DISCHARGE. THE SIG SAUER P320 IS AMONG THE MOST RIGOROUSLY VETTED PISTOLS IN THE MARKET. THE P320 MEETS AND EXCEEDS ALL US SAFETY STANDARDS AND GLOBAL MILITARY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT PROTOCOLS, INCLUDING THE AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARDS INSTITUTE (ANSI), NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF JUSTICE (NIJ), AND DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ). THE P320 IS ONE OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE AND SOUGHT-AFTER PISTOLS IN THE FIREARMS MARKET, AND THE PISTOL OF CHOICE FOR ALL BRANCHES OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY (M17/M18), ALONG WITH NUMEROUS LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND OTHER MILITARY UNITS WORLDWIDE. Sometimes, you gotta roll the hard six | |||
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There's a solution for this with Glocks: https://taudevgroup.myshopify....riker-control-device It's the risk every pistol has with a light trigger and lack of external safeties. The holster is a safety. __________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0. | |||
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Just released... Typical gov-speak, nobody to blame and not one thing contributed but, the holster wasn't an exact fit and some 'stuff' got inside but, we don't think that had anything to do with it.  Canadian Special Operations Forces Command Statement on the Summary Investigation into a Small Arms Weapons Incident that occurred on November 5, 2020
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So in the article you linked it included this incident:
So that incident occurred during agency training (outdoors, in the winter) and was witnessed by agency instructors. This agency has their own specific SKU’s of 320 which are the only 320s authorized. The shooter was using a SERPA holster designed for a P229R DAK. The fact that it was made for a P229 DAK is less significant than the fact that it is a SERPA. Shooter claimed the gun “just went off” and that he never touched the trigger. Witnesses say otherwise. Shooter was fighting to draw the gun and as often happens when the SERPA doesn’t work just right, when the gun finally came free, he got his finger on the trigger as he was drawing and put a round through his leg a la Tex Grebner. The agency examined the gun and found no mechanical issue or failure. Issues with the original P320s and even some of the “upgraded” originals are a real thing, however the current production guns (which mirror the guns of the agency in question) are good to go. | |||
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"The shooter was using a SERPA holster designed for a P229R DAK. The fact that it was made for a P229 DAK is less significant than the fact that it is a SERPA. Shooter claimed the gun “just went off” and that he never touched the trigger." Yeah, well, the fact that it was a SERPA is less significant than the fact that he wasn't shooting a DAK. ____________________ | |||
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| Freethinker |
What sort of issues? How do the modified guns differ from current production pistols? ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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Why do loaded 320's not discharge themselves while in a drawer or on a shelf? If it's a defect, shouldn't it? | |||
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Just more fake news. | |||
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Has anyone ever collected data on the make and model of handguns and number of AD/ND and the people carrying them (police/civilians), and type of situations in which the discharge occurs (in holster while sitting, running, etc)? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Democracy is 2 Wolves & a Lamb debating the lunch menu. Liberty is a well armed Lamb! | |||
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OMG, a three page discussion of an operator error. The 320 isn’t the problem here and no thinking person would think they are. | |||
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I know at 3 LEO's that have discharged their Glocks while breaking them down for cleaning. I would bet there are thousands of these instances documented at various LE Agencies around the US. | |||
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I am assuming then we only hear about the very public cases such as in Philadelphia and the Loudon County Deputy Sheriff who was badly injured when her 320 discharged while holsters. I remember when almost all PD carried revolvers and their was still ND and the police department would try to blame it on the revolver. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Democracy is 2 Wolves & a Lamb debating the lunch menu. Liberty is a well armed Lamb! | |||
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Thanks Spunk639, interesting news report. The news report stated that there have been over 50 such incidents across the country. What is actually happening is hard to determine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Democracy is 2 Wolves & a Lamb debating the lunch menu. Liberty is a well armed Lamb! | |||
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When you read these stories, consider this: What is now (and has been for a while) the overwhelmingly popular type of handgun in this country? The striker fired, no manual safety poly pistol. More pistols with more users = more bad handling, more poor trigger discipline, more stupid holsters / holstering and any other type of sloppiness you can imagine. In fact, the guns are often advertised as being easy to shoot. And they are! AD/NDs have been with us since the invention of firearms, regardless of type. A good example is the Colt SAA. Lots of folks shot themselves with it, to the point that the loading procedure was altered (load one, skip one) to reduce ND/ADs with it. Can there be design or mechanical issues with the striker gun? I guess its remotely possible. But I firmly believe that 99.9% of AD/NDs are operator error. End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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I agree with YooperSigs. Is mechanical issue a genuine possibility? Sure. But, I went into the 320 hoping for a handgun that I could carry and feel competent with. With limited time for training with the weapon, I found myself in a situation that dictated change. The 320 is an amazing piece, just not for me. I went to DA/SA pistols that gave me the "safety" of knowing that the first round in DA requires more than 1/4" of trigger movement and is substantially more intentional. For ME, this was a wise change. My money is on the thought that lack of training or just being new to this weapon for many of these AD/ND's is a contributing factor. It is NOT the weapons fault, just a characteristic of the design. Know your weapon and be willing to train. Just one Mann's opinion, far from set in stone. LaMont in AZ | |||
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Yeah, well.... Not in this case. I'm aware of other ND incidents where the shorter, lighter trigger pull of the 320, combined with bad habits developed with the DAK resulted in ND's but, not in this case. One in particular involving an ND while holstering after a serial number check for inventory. The SERPA mechanism is a flawed design from a human factors POV. It works ok until it doesn't, specifically when the gun does not release on the draw, due to either the mechanism, or more commonly human error, the user is simultaneously pulling on the gun and pushing inward with the trigger finger. When the gun does not initially come free, then suddenly does come free, the user's finger goes right onto the trigger. This is not a gun issue, guns are designed to be held with the finger on the trigger, since the purpose of holding them is to shoot them, an example of the design principle known as "affordance." I've personally witnessed and treated two ND's involving SERPA's over the years, both involving Glocks, and I'm aware of another involving a DA/SA 229 in DA mode. There's a reason FLETC, the FBI and may other institutions and private training entities prohibit the use of holsters which use the trigger finger to release retention. Not to mention the durability issues of the plainclothes version of the SERPA. 2, maybe 3 years ago now we had an suspect assault and attempt to disarm one of our officers. The officer was able to keep the gun in the holster but the holster was ripped off the belt attachment during the struggle, which is unacceptable. Did the fact that the holster was made for a 229 play real part in this ? Not that I can see other than it would give SIG and the holster maker a strong argument for avoiding liability. | |||
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This occurred in 2019 so the question is: Was this an original design 320 ? Was this an original design gun that was upgraded ? Was this a current production gun? | |||
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The "upgrades" IME are all over the place in terms of what was or wasn't done to them and what parts are or are not in them. Here is the best example. This is from a local PD officer/armorer who also acts as an FI/Armorer for his local church security team. Gun is question was a 10/2017 built P320 which was bought new, subsequently sent in for upgrade and then had an unintentional discharge in a vehicle. It was initially thought to be a negligent discharge but examination of the gun showed it was likely an accidental discharge: Original build date of 10/2017. I entered the s/n into Sig's website "upgrade" checker and it came up good to go per Sig. However....... The dual sear springs were crossed and not putting correct pressure up on the foot of the striker Despite the upgrade the gun still had an older style sear that lacks the nipples or posts that the springs slip over to keep them aligned. It has dimples instead....and apparently, whoever assembled it in 10/17 did so in a hurry because the sear springs were crossed. The gun also still had the spring that retracts the lever that lifts the striker block, i.e. the spring that Sig no longer installs in recent builds. I feel certain that I now know why. The spring that retracts the lever that lifts the striker block, was a little hosed up. My thoughts are that the striker block lever was "stuck" in the upward position, combined with a striker foot not held by proper dual spring tension, and when our guy holstered, when his pistol clicked down and seated, the striker slipped from the sear and fell forward....discharging the round. Examination of other guns from the same general time this one was build shows they all have the newer style sear with spring posts instead of the dimples. Even if an error occurred during the original build, it should have been caught during the upgrade. I do believe the current production 320's are mechanically safe, but I'm leary of the "upgraded" originals unless checked by a competent armorer. | |||
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This is a fallacy, nothing Should go off sitting still right, so your argument is weak. Perhaps holstered, there is enough play in slide, components or whatever to allow slippage. I don’t discount it as 2 of my three P320 have been kinda poor. Last seemed ok, but lost confidence in the platform. Dave | |||
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