quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
No one wants to consider the fact that there may be a defect in the pistol behind this? If the were all user error, we'd be hearing about a lot of these with Glocks and maybe M&Ps, which I figure are in a lot more LE holsters than P320s. I haven't. Has anyone else?

I'm perfectly willing to consider it, but if it's a problem with the design of the gun why haven't they been able to replicate it in any of these cases? It's a mechanical device...anything it does should be repeatable.

With the drop safety issue, many people were able to replicate the problem, and Sig fixed it. If all of these recent issues are the fault of the gun, why haven't the plaintiffs (or anyone else) been able to demonstrate the problem and identify the specific design defect that is causing it?

quote:

Originally posted by DonGlock26:


Police officers handle handguns on a daily basis, so there is more of a chance of a design failure or negligent discharge. In the military, weapons are locked up in an armory unless you are training or in a dangerous area. Civilians may carry daily or lock their
pistol up for years. I believe a Canadian Special Forces member just had a AD with a P320.
Sig is blaming the holster.

Rightfully so, because he was using a holster made for a different pistol.

quote:

Sig is blaming the holster.

Like sns3guppy said, rightfully so. The holster in that situation was made for a different pistol and was modified to fit the P320.

quote:

Originally posted by DonGlock26:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:


Assume that there could be, but the question is why it’s only LEOs’ guns that are discharging spontaneously? Is it happening with military weapons or any of the countless guns in non-LEOs’ hands?

Police officers handle handguns on a daily basis, so there is more of a chance of a design failure or negligent discharge. In the military, weapons are locked up in an armory unless you are training or in a dangerous area. Civilians may carry daily or lock their
pistol up for years. I believe a Canadian Special Forces member just had a AD with a P320.
Sig is blaming the holster.

If that's your reasoning, that SIG Academy would be ground zero of every one of these lawsuits.

Tens of thousands of students every year, most of whom are rank newbies, armed with 320s of every flavor, for the most part, doing hundreds of thousands of draws. That one place probably accounts for more handling of 320s than the entire LE population in this country.

quote:

Originally posted by DonGlock26:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:


Assume that there could be, but the question is why it’s only LEOs’ guns that are discharging spontaneously? Is it happening with military weapons or any of the countless guns in non-LEOs’ hands?

Police officers handle handguns on a daily basis, so there is more of a chance of a design failure or negligent discharge. In the military, weapons are locked up in an armory unless you are training or in a dangerous area. Civilians may carry daily or lock their
pistol up for years. I believe a Canadian Special Forces member just had a AD with a P320.
Sig is blaming the holster.

It was a 320 in a 226 holster. No idea how the "Special" forces guy didn't know that. (or didn't care)

quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It was a 320 in a 226 holster. No idea how the "Special" forces guy didn't know that. (or didn't care)

Canadian "Special Forces".

Way too many incidents with the same story. When the gun fires secured in a holster its defective.
Sig has lied, back-peddled and tried to cover this thing up from the jump. Ron Cohen is the worst thing to happen to Sig.

Oh please. This is Glock leg all over. Most if not all of these are user error. If not you could recreate the AD. You can’t. They can’t. Nobody can. This isn’t trying to recreate the cosmic goo that created life level stuff. This is actually having the gun and holster in question and I’m trying every possible way to get a round to go off and I can’t shirt of introduction of my finger, t shirt, junk, etc into holster to make it go off. Now you got guys arguing 5hat 5he sear engagement is so small that maybe a drop of oil or dried lube could cause it to just go off. Yet no one can recreate that. And about how many millions of end users aren’t shooting themselves in the foot? Cops aren’t well trained in firearms overwhelmingly so. The cops going to courses on their own dime or even from their PD dime are the outlier. Most get the training they got originally and then a very short watered down qual event that might be a year in between events. Tell me I’m wrong.

The average guy who shoots regularly, does matches, shoots competitively would be one of your better shooters on your force. Most cops treat guns like plumbers treat wrenches. It’s a tool. I use it when I have to and ignore it 5he rest of the time.

LE has an inordinate amount of firearms ND. The rationalizers say it’s because they handle them so much. The reality is it’s because they are carrying around a dangerous device and aren’t really trained as well as they should be. The accidents usually happen when they are merely doing administrative actions. Loading, unloading, putting them in lock boxes to enter jails, etc. It’s the training. (They are also tired, overworked, and underpaid which doesn’t help).

My point is that these happen to cops because statistically they have a lot, a lot of ND. Sig 320 has enough history any lawyer would take this case just for the chance of a settlement.

When they can make this gun just “go off”, ala the Omaha stuff I will come back and apologize. Don’t count on it happening though. It just went off my ass.

quote:

Originally posted by sg:
Way too many incidents with the same story. When the gun fires secured in a holster its defective.
Sig has lied, back-peddled and tried to cover this thing up from the jump. Ron Cohen is the worst thing to happen to Sig.

How many documented incidents?

I’m of the camp that believes guns with short trigger pulls of 5 pounds without an off switch are not good duty guns.

The original Specs for the 1911 had a short trigger pull of 5 pounds and had a thumb safety and a grip safety. But, no one carried one around cocked and unlocked.

I believe he needed an excuse for the discharge. He is just trying to cover his rear.

Sgt that is a completely different issue. The issue here is whether this gun self discharged without even being touched or as it was touched, I don’t recall. If I carried on duty I would prefer a good TDA. Neither here nor there in this discussion though. This dumbass shot himself and between Sig’s poor handling of their “upgrade”, disdain for Cohen, 320 hate, dingus loving, etc. it has morphed into a general if anything bad happens let’s blame Sig stigma.

Seriously, people are still bringing up the Canadian SF’s guy. That dumb motherfucker used a heat gun modified holster and shot himself. That’s Darwinism folks. That was also a bit of corporate espionage using this completely expected outcome of dumbfuckery to paint Sigs contract in a bad light. No one should take that event seriously.

I much prefer the Beretta 92 series to the 320’s but I bet the overall qualification scores and general ability to hit stuff by Army guys improved markedly upon the changeover.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Sgt that is a completely different issue. The issue here is whether this gun self discharged without even being touched or as it was touched, I don’t recall. If I carried on duty I would prefer a good TDA. Neither here nor there in this discussion though. This dumbass shot himself and between Sig’s poor handling of their “upgrade”, disdain for Cohen, 320 hate, dingus loving, etc. it has morphed into a general if anything bad happens let’s blame Sig stigma.

Seriously, people are still bringing up the Canadian SF’s guy. That dumb motherfucker used a heat gun modified holster and shot himself. That’s Darwinism folks. That was also a bit of corporate espionage using this completely expected outcome of dumbfuckery to paint Sigs contract in a bad light. No one should take that event seriously.

I much prefer the Beretta 92 series to the 320’s but I bet the overall qualification scores and general ability to hit stuff by Army guys improved markedly upon the changeover.

I think you’re being a little harsh on the Canadian SF guy. Who knows how all that went down. The holster was modified in some fashion to fit the 320. How or by whom I’m not sure has been made clear and I haven’t seen any videos or pictures of it. Could be the command/armory did the holster mod and simply issued them out...”Heres your new gun and holster”. Not sure the SF guy took it upon himself to do that. Sig was quick to point this out and hang their hat on it as the cause, but would have been better served to do a video showing exactly how that contributed.

You mention that you would prefer a TDA for duty and I can only assume from that you understand the huge added safety level from a hammer gun with a heavier, longer first pull. The poster above you makes a decent point as well, that I’ve made in the past about 1911’s. If we saw someone carrying a 1911 cocked and not locked with the safety, we would probably clutch our pearls about how unsafe that was. Nobody to my knowledge would advocate for that yet the group that says “keep your finger off the trigger and use a holster that completely covers the trigger” when it applies to striker guns remain silent on that advice when it applies to 1911’s. I think we are at the point where striker guns are chasing that light pull and ease of use to the point of diminishing returns as far as safety goes.

As far as Sig and 320 haters, I’m not one. The 320 is a cool gun bringing a lot to the table but I sold my last one. I just can’t in good conscience carry/use a gun that seems to keep popping up with issues. I think Sig is an amazing company that has pushed the envelope and come out with a lot of new and exciting products but they have figuratively shot themselves in the foot over the gun that fired when dropped, along with many other issues they have and rarely seem to accept ownership of. Sig is a huge company with engineers and layers of management. It shouldn’t have taken joe schmoe on the internet to make videos of their guns firing when dropped. I’m not an engineer or firearms expert and can’t make an educated opinion on what if anything is going on with the stories of the 320 firing while holstered. I do know that Sig no longer gets the benefit of the doubt from me. They’ve proven time and again to simply not be forthcoming with their customers and handle product issues through “voluntary upgrades” and revision after revision.

I agree about the Canadian SF guy. He was likely given a gun and a holster and told go yonder young door kicker. He probably just assumed it was a proper holster.

I am however in the camp of this being sort of the striker fired nature of the beast. They all have fairly light, very short travels and the vast majority of them have no mechanical (I know there are plenty of passive safties) active safety. I also have always found it odd that a 5lb unlocked 1911 is no bueno but a 5lb striker is all good.

I am not saying that “STRIKER BAD!!!” Just saying they do come with their own set of safety challenges that come with their trigger pros.

I am a TDA Luddite in general so what do I know.

That said I’ve always felt Glock walked the line the best. It’s still fairly light and short but still require a bit of effort. It seems everybody trying to unseat Glock has done so, in many cases, with better triggers. Those better triggers tend to be lighter or shorter/easier which is a bit double edged.

One reason I have always appreciated crappy HK triggers is they are designed as much to NOT go off when they shouldn’t as they are to go off when they should.

But guns are dangerous, they are kinda supposed to be. Learn your given tool and pay particular attention to its weaknesses they all have them and in firearms they are likely the safety concerns you want to pay attention to.

Ok, I will say “whoever” heat gunned a holster to fit a completely different gun and then without telling said SF Canadian guy who subsequently shot himself in the leg is a fucking dumbass.

Either way a whole lot of unleaded stupid went on north of the border in that incident. We perhaps don’t know who the idiot was but there was an idiot.

If I handed you a holster that I modded from a Sig 226 to fit a Sig 320 would you use it? My point is no one should blame that ridiculous incident on Sig. That’s bullshit.

I agree about preferring TDA. Beretta and CZ are tough to beat. And your 1911 comment is spot on.

"He had a large iced tea in the cupholder."

Important information to know... God knows what would have happened if it was a Venti Hot Mocha Froppachino soy latte with caramel......

I couldn't have said it any better than cslinger. I'd quote the reply but that'd just take up space. Go read his last, prior post again. He's exactly right.

I have a hard time believing one "just went off". Mine was so crappy, there was no way in hell to set that piece of shit off, even actually trying to.

Sent it back to Sig where they made it worse, then mailed it back to the wrong address.

I get it back and it wouldn't go fully into battery, much less actually fire. Their solution was for me to go out and "shoot it a lot". When you have to smack the slide into place, that would take a really long time.

Is there any confirmation that the holster In question was in fact, modified with a heat gun to fit a P320, or is that speculative at this point?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:


I am however in the camp of this being sort of the striker fired nature of the beast. They all have fairly light, very short travels and the vast majority of them have no mechanical (I know there are plenty of passive safties) active safety. I also have always found it odd that a 5lb unlocked 1911 is no bueno but a 5lb striker is all good.

That's about as concise as one can get.

The difference between the 1911 (for argument sake let's say a series 80 with a FP block) and striker pistol? You can see the fully cocked hammer on a 1911. You don't see the fully cocked (on some pistols) striker on a striker pistol. Somehow that makes the striker pistol "safer".