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With law enforcement moving to MRDs and having had lights for a long time would it make sense….. Login/Join 
jljones
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My first exposure to an OIS involved a shotgun. Officer fired at a suspect from about 30 feet. The load was Winchester Double Ought. Seven pellets hit the suspect square in the chest. An eight hit the stock of the AK he was holding. The ninth went over the shoulder, went through a sliding glass door and into a sheet rock wall.

While empirical, it told me everything I wanted to know about the shotgun.

You can take that for exactly what you paid for it. Shotguns are great to open doors and shoot less lethal out of. The AR is superior in every other facet.



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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37117 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
CPD SIG
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quote:
Originally posted by cslinger:
I gotta say for a topic that veered of course this has been interesting reading. Thanks all for that.


Sorry, but to kind of get back on course-

Short answer: no.
Why a PDW? I've got a 9mm/40/45 with possibly a light and a red-dot on my hip. If I want a "bigger gun", I'm going to get a "bigger GUN".
(Shotgun/AR/Sniper rifle)

A PDW (such as an MP-5/UMP/beretta mpx...) is just a "bigger handgun". It's still a 9mm/40/45 just with a longer barrel. Not a lot of knock down power at a distance.

I can punch harder and further with a shotgun, an AR and Sniper Rifle.

A duty handgun will never be replaced with a PDW/SMG type weapon in (regular) law enforcement (SWAT is something different) A duty handgun is easier to control from a retention point of view. It's also a lot less "scary" when Officer Friendly shows up with a G-17/P-220/S&W on their hip vs an MP-5.


______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 8342 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
CPD SIG
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
My first exposure to an OIS involved a shotgun. Officer fired at a suspect from about 30 feet. The load was Winchester Double Ought. Seven pellets hit the suspect square in the chest. An eight hit the stock of the AK he was holding. The ninth went over the shoulder, went through a sliding glass door and into a sheet rock wall.

While empirical, it told me everything I wanted to know about the shotgun.

You can take that for exactly what you paid for it. Shotguns are great to open doors and shoot less lethal out of. The AR is superior in every other facet.



You've been playing this "cops and robbers" game for a while...
That OIS with the shotgun-
Was an AR available at the time or was the shotgun all the officer had to work with? (As in "were the AR's issued" or was it "back in the stone ages" like when we started?)


______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 8342 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
My first exposure to an OIS involved a shotgun. Officer fired at a suspect from about 30 feet. The load was Winchester Double Ought. Seven pellets hit the suspect square in the chest. An eight hit the stock of the AK he was holding. The ninth went over the shoulder, went through a sliding glass door and into a sheet rock wall.

While empirical, it told me everything I wanted to know about the shotgun.

You can take that for exactly what you paid for it. Shotguns are great to open doors and shoot less lethal out of. The AR is superior in every other facet.



You've been playing this "cops and robbers" game for a while...
That OIS with the shotgun-
Was an AR available at the time or was the shotgun all the officer had to work with? (As in "were the AR's issued" or was it "back in the stone ages" like when we started?)


Way back in the day. Sept 1996.



www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37117 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
RichardC
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Did the suspect return fire?


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Posts: 15891 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
bcjwriter
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Nope. Duty handguns aren't carried because they're the absolute best means of applying deadly force with a firearm. When you're going into a known hot area, you take a long gun (if available, and if you have enough time to retrieve it).

Instead, handguns are carried because they're a compromise, allowing constant access to a reasonable means of deadly force application without being overly bulky, heavy, or snag-prone.

Going to something noticeably bulkier/heavier defeats that purpose.

Adding a light and MRD to a handgun doesn't make it anywhere near as large/bulky/obtrusive as a slung PDW/SBR. It's still extremely compact, as far as firearms go, and can still be holstered to minimize its profile and movement, and prevent it from getting in the way. Compare that to a slung rifle/PDW, even a relatively small one.


100%



 
Posts: 1965 | Location: Southern CA | Registered: July 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardC:
Did the suspect return fire?


No. It was suicide by cop.



www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37117 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
CPD SIG
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CPD SIG:


Way back in the day. Sept 1996.



I'm betting that the only other weapons system was a shotgun. Not too many departments were using AR's back then.

(Damn Brother, we've been playing this game for a long time now...)


I'd be interested to see the numbers of today-
How many departments have AR's available to patrol units
How many have shotguns available.

I know the answer to "question 3": more officers are using the AR than Shotguns.


______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 8342 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
RichardC
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I'm sorry, jlj. That must be awful for everyone involved.


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Posts: 15891 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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