So with the trend towards dots, lights and in some cases gun mounted camera’s etc. does it make sense for law enforcement to move away from a duty pistol and more towards a “PDWesque” firearm that would offer more “rail space”, possibly a folding stock etc. in order to increase accuracy and capability. Something like a TP9???

I realize there are “optics” involved and ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain but it seems like the duty handgun is getting kinda bulky anyway.

I am sitting in a waiting room and bored so I am just musing.

Chris

Nope. Duty handguns aren't carried because they're the absolute best means of applying deadly force with a firearm. When you're going into a known hot area, you take a long gun (if available, and if you have enough time to retrieve it).

Instead, handguns are carried because they're a compromise, allowing constant access to a reasonable means of deadly force application without being overly bulky, heavy, or snag-prone.

Going to something noticeably bulkier/heavier defeats that purpose.

Adding a light and MRD to a handgun doesn't make it anywhere near as large/bulky/obtrusive as a slung PDW/SBR. It's still extremely compact, as far as firearms go, and can still be holstered to minimize its profile and movement, and prevent it from getting in the way. Compare that to a slung rifle/PDW, even a relatively small one.

Everything he said, plus the inconvenience.

But the public perception of a slung long gun, even a relatively short one, would still be, IMO, a significant factor even without the other considerations. Some people bitch about the appearance of officers’ wearing visible protective vests as contributing to the “militarization” of the police even though that practice offers distinct advantages and has been common in Europe for a long time.

All fair enough and about what I thought. Just seems like duty handguns are getting pretty loaded up with “stuff”.

Handguns are weapons of convenience. And 98% of the time, you respond to calls that have no need for a weapon of any type.

I retired in very early 2018, so have been out of the LE game, for a few years, but, I think not. In the final few months of my career, I had to patrol in one of the down-sized Ford Explorer-based vehicles, and, on the nights I was riding in the right front seat, I had to carry a G19, rather than a G17, in the duty holster, due to the absolutely cramped interior, and the difficulty of smoothly exiting that right front door, without the grip catching on the right seat bolster. It is not that I had gotten big. I wore a 34” duty belt, my entire career.

If the mobile computer was pivoted far enough to the right, to allow the driver to be able to freely steer, the passenger officer had to tolerate that terminal being very much in the way, almost in one’s lap. No room for a PDW to be attached to one’s person, with a sling.

I did often use a “PDW” type of weapon, at the higher-threat scenes, but it was a Benelli M2 shotgun. Yes, that tiny patrol vehicle had made it difficult to get the Benelli out of the rack, and out the door. I might have worked a few more years, had I been able to keep patrolling in a Tahoe.

Edited to add: At the time I retired, my duty Glocks were adorned with neither MRDOs nor WMLs. Both were forbidden, by policy. (No MRDOs, on anyone’s pistols. WMLs were OK, only if we could manage to attend one of the far-too-few certification classes.) Shortly after I retired, both became standard, on duty pistols, at least for new-hires.

I agree with all of the above and will add that we got away from pistol caliber long guns for a reason. If you think you need a gun, bring a big gun.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
[W]e got away from pistol caliber long guns for a reason.

Another good point.

Europeans think American LEO's with 12G shotguns are barbaric, but their own officers with slung submachine guns are just normal.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
I agree with all of the above and will add that we got away from pistol caliber long guns for a reason. If you think you need a gun, bring a big gun.

True! When the Super Bowl came to down, I knew I would be assigned to a road barricade, either in the downtown area, or out by the stadium, so I drove to GT Distributors in Austin, Texas, to buy fresh Federal TruBall Penetrator slugs, to load into my Benelli M2. At the time, it was trendy for Islamic terrorists in Europe to steal “lorries,” as BBC presenters would say, and then drive into crowded venues. Yessir, I wanted to be able to launch heavy metal. (Yes, the shotgun and the slugs were within PD policy.)

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Europeans think American LEO's with 12G shotguns are barbaric, but their own officers with slung submachine guns are just normal.

I think the 5.56 rifle has all but replaced the 12 gauge shotgun. There is still something of a place for the 12 gauge, and modern ammo (limited spread buckshot) has helped, but the fact is that with a shotgun, you fight with the limited ammo that is in or on the gun. For the most part, the ergos are not as good as a rifle, they're not any shorter, and most don't have optics. Hell, I would bet most are bead sighted. By the time you add a light that doesn't suck, a stock that is more ergonomic and fits a variety of officer sizes, and an optic if you want that, you're well into 5.56 SBR territory.

The biggest use case I saw for the gauge was fairly confined spaces but I would rather have a suppressed rifle in those spaces.

Edit:

I know there are a ton of police shotguns out there. My agency still has them. We spent a pile of money on brand new 14" 870s with Surefire lights, Mesa Tactical inside saddles, slings, and jumbo safeties. I waste a ton of time at ranges every year re-training the masses on how to load, unload, reload, and shoot the things. I would suspect that 25% of our people are "competent" with them at any given time and the other 75% wouldn't touch it literally if their life depended on it. Rifle? No problem for most people.

I wasn’t thinking of a do all replacement for a carbine/SG.

quote:

I think the 5.56 rifle has all but replaced the 12 gauge shotgun.

In theory yes, in reality-not so much. Most of our vehicles have a mount for a shotgun but none for the rifle which is stored in a drawer in the rear compartment locker. So if I am in a hurry, I grab the shotgun and my bailout bag (2 extra pistol mags, 2 extra AR15 mags, a couple strips of 6 shotgun shells for a total of 12 of both 00 buck and slugs, 3 tourniquets, 3 clotting gaze, 2 chest seals, gloves, small pry bar, 10x monocular,and a Lifeboat water pouch).

In my new vehicle there is a rifle mount but it does not fit our department rifles (what you get when people who haven't driven a patrol vehicle in 15+ years try to set the vehicles up-this happens quite often in other departments too). I was able to change things on my personally owned department approved rifle (moved light, dropped the fore grip) to get it to fit in the rack.

In one of my early academies the doctrine taught was that your shotgun is your primary weapon, you use the handgun when you didn't have time to get the shotgun. Carbines in the cruiser were a rarity in the day.

We’re still using our ancient Benelli m1 super 90s in our cars which are mounted next to the driver seat. Next to it is our ancient Vietnam-era bastardized M16s made to fit in the car. The AR mag makes a handy elbow rest.

DD has completed production on our new rifles last month. Still waiting on ATF approval.

Our shotguns are loaded with Federal flitecontrol buckshot.

Our chief mandated RMRs on our handguns last year and chose the most asinine way to mount them (Trijicon RM44 dovetail mount). I had my slide milled before he banned milling.

We’ve allowed WMLs since the early days when WMLs were in their infancy.

No more pistol pdws in our inventory. We used to have MP5 and UMPs.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

I think the 5.56 rifle has all but replaced the 12 gauge shotgun.

In theory yes, in reality-not so much. Most of our vehicles have a mount for a shotgun but none for the rifle which is stored in a drawer in the rear compartment locker. So if I am in a hurry, I grab the shotgun and my bailout bag (2 extra pistol mags, 2 extra AR15 mags, a couple strips of 6 shotgun shells for a total of 12 of both 00 buck and slugs, 3 tourniquets, 3 clotting gaze, 2 chest seals, gloves, small pry bar, 10x monocular,and a Lifeboat water pouch).

In my new vehicle there is a rifle mount but it does not fit our department rifles (what you get when people who haven't driven a patrol vehicle in 15+ years try to set the vehicles up-this happens quite often in other departments too). I was able to change things on my personally owned department approved rifle (moved light, dropped the fore grip) to get it to fit in the rack.

That makes you one of the 25% that can competently run the shotgun and appreciate and understand it well enough to make the choice to take it. By and large, this does not represent the majority of officers and I suspect that the percentage will continue to decrease.

DaBigBR, shotgun was my primary weapon (entry and tactical) when I was on an Emergency Services Team when I was in the Air Force Security Police. I shoot Trap once or twice a month with an 870 pump and I also do a bit of Cowboy Action Shooting with a double barrel coach gun. Probably only around 10-15% of officers can really run a shotgun beyond the first shot or two. I would love it if my department allowed a "personally owned/department approved" shotgun. It would be set up right, might start with a Scattergun Tech or Magpul 870 and go from there with light, red dot, and side saddle shell carrier.

I have an 870 and a rifle in my car. I find myself grabbing the shotgun more than the rifle. When engaging one or two suspect at most of the distances that we're dealing with, it's a better option IMO. For high-risk stops, a violent suspect in a house with a handgun, that kind of stuff, I'm likely going to be well within the effective range of the shotgun and it's going to be the most likely tool to yield rapid (hopefully immediate) incapacitation.

The guy holed up in the house shooting out the front door across the front yard, or an active shooter at the school or the college, I'll take the rifle. It's good to have options.

Back to the original question...I would not want to carry a PDW around everywhere on patrol. I've seen it on guys in Europe walking a beat in high-security areas like diplomatic quarters, outside government buildings, and airports (sometimes even slung rifles), but for most of us here in the states working out of a car, it would be a huge PITA.

Our department was so concerned about accountability of "rounds going downrange", that not long after training every officer on the use of the Patrol Rifle (Colt Commando model AR15s), we had these long guns in every car and though we kept the Remington 870 12 gauge shotguns, buckshot was replaced with rifled slugs. What officer in their right mind would want to deal with a serious threat, using a slide action weapon capable of carrying only four or five rounds, that require far more muscle memory for proficiency than a 30 round capacity semi-automatic rifle, that has far less felt recoil?

I think our shotguns are gathering dust, while the "go to" duty weapon for situations where you have time to employ it is the .223 caliber carbine.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I have an 870 and a rifle in my car. I find myself grabbing the shotgun more than the rifle. When engaging one or two suspect at most of the distances that we're dealing with, it's a better option IMO. For high-risk stops, a violent suspect in a house with a handgun, that kind of stuff, I'm likely going to be well within the effective range of the shotgun and it's going to be the most likely tool to yield rapid (hopefully immediate) incapacitation.

Have you shot your shotgun loads through intermediate barriers like automotive glass? We found that our slugs and buckshot were all average three shots for a hit through laminated glass, and I'm talking about ringing steel, not about "effective." That process also chews up half of the ammo on board. 5.56 still took several rounds to start getting hits through glass, but losing five or six rounds out of a 30 round magazine appears far ideal to three rounds out of five or six in the gun.

Don't rely on what you "feel", rely on the data.