quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The high rate of claimed “uncommanded” discharges certainly got us here, but to assume that all or even any of the claims were valid is a perfect example of the logical fallacy of begging the question.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Do you believe most are simply mistaken regarding the circumstances of the discharges … sigfreund?

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Well...I have a solution that will all but eliminate these discharges. Put those atrocious DAK triggers in those babies. That'll fix 'em.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Well...I have a solution that will all but eliminate these discharges. Put those atrocious DAK triggers in those babies. That'll fix 'em.

Not true. Years back we had one officer who let a round go in the then S&W 686. Not to be outdone, he let one go when we transitioned to the S&W 659. Both had trigger pulls in the 12 to 14 pound range. So a mechanical device can always be outdone by a total idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Do you believe most are simply mistaken regarding the circumstances of the discharges … sigfreund?

Yes, I do. I cannot and therefore will not attempt to demonstrate that every unintentional discharge of a P320 was due to some causative factor not related to the gun’s design being unsafe. The reason for that is because for most of the claims the specific, and vital details of the incident are not available. For the ones I do know something about, though, I believe there are reasonable explanations that do not involve the possibility that the gun fired without the trigger’s being pulled to move the safety lock out of its blocking position and to release the sear.

One incident involved the pistol’s being dropped into a light bearing holster without a light on the gun, or very likely, simply holstered with a finger on the trigger—as has happened many times with other gun makes. One involved an agency’s issuing P320s and not issuing proper holsters. One involved (what I could see) a gun’s not being holstered properly at all when it happened. One report was that the gun was carried loose in a purse or tote bag with other objects and not in a proper holster.

Others? I simply don’t know, but another thing I point out is that the Loch Ness monster (among many other mythical creatures) has been seen more times than people have claimed that a P320 fired without pulling the trigger. And that doesn’t include all the people who have been abducted by space aliens or seen various miraculous sights. The simple fact is that people very often make false claims about almost any conceivable thing, sometimes because of mistaken perceptions, but especially when they have good reasons to.

An example of the last was very recently when someone was handling a gun carelessly and improperly, and killed a fellow Air Force member unintentionally: “Oh, it was one of those unsafe M18s that went off by itself while it was just lying there in the holster.” Fortunately in that case a competent investigation revealed the truth of the matter and countless YouTube claims dried up like a pee drop in the Atacama Desert; I will predict nevertheless, that that tale will still be repeated years from now.

Oh, one other: Above it was mentioned that during the transition from the M9 to the M17 pistols how difficult it was to get experienced users of the former to keep their fingers off the trigger until on target and preparing the shoot. I doubt many here were around back then or if so, remember what was reported when LE agencies started abandoning revolvers and switching to Glocks: the same thing. Officers were accustomed to putting their fingers on the trigger and even applying significant pressure because nothing would happen. With the Glock, though, that all changed, and the “dingus” didn’t do a thing to prevent it. Plus of course, unintentional discharges with Glocks did not end 40 years ago; no one, however, claims they happen just by themselves—at least not anyone we pay any attention to.

Anyway, now thus endeth the discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Stickmaker:

Sometimes they will honestly claim and believe something which not only contradicts the testimony of other people and the actual evidence, but defies physics.

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Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Well...I have a solution that will all but eliminate these discharges. Put those atrocious DAK triggers in those babies. That'll fix 'em.

Not true. Years back we had one officer who let a round go in the then S&W 686. Not to be outdone, he let one go when we transitioned to the S&W 659. Both had trigger pulls in the 12 to 14 pound range. So a mechanical device can always be outdone by a total idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by CAR:

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Well...I have a solution that will all but eliminate these discharges. Put those atrocious DAK triggers in those babies. That'll fix 'em.

Not true. Years back we had one officer who let a round go in the then S&W 686. Not to be outdone, he let one go when we transitioned to the S&W 659. Both had trigger pulls in the 12 to 14 pound range. So a mechanical device can always be outdone by a total idiot.

Yep, our local PD had two ADs that I am aware of, one with a S&W Model 10 and the other with a Remington 870 that was still in the cruiser rack (driver later said partner was absent-mindedly fidgeting with the safety and trigger when the gun fired). Both guns were claimed to have "Just gone off by themselves".

Good thing there was no internet and YouTube in the late 1970's.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Image if we could 'all but eliminate' all the speculation and conjecture being promulgated as fact on this matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Well...I have a solution that will all but eliminate these discharges. Put those atrocious DAK triggers in those babies. That'll fix 'em.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:

I think for duty guns, a long smooth trigger, with an exposed hammer, or a cocked and locked semiauto are the optimal carry guns. To this day, my two favorite appendix guns are one of two P239’s. DAK.