quote:

Originally posted by sw4566:
Mr. Jones, I know this because I am the Glock "rep". More precisely, I am the Regional Sales Manager for both LE and Commercial Sales, for the entire Eastern U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico. There is no stoppage of COA sales for "two years" as claimed. There are no current US military orders of any consequence for COA pistols. Agency drop ships are taking longer due to unprecedented demand,so as a cautionary measure, some agencies are being told that their delivery date may push out to 180 days from date of PO being issued.

Well, I tried to tell people here without telling them directly, because it is not my information to divulge, but now they know. If any member here can speak knowledgeably on the subject of current Glock sales, it is you.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:

quote:

Originally posted by sw4566:for COA pistols. Agency drop ships are taking longer due to unprecedented demand,so as a cautionary measure, some agencies are being told that their delivery date may push out to 180 days from date of PO being issued.

I was at our area Glock LE dealer yesterday asking about ordering a COA gun. He told me Glock CANCELED all his outstanding orders. Not delayed or backordered. He said they canceled all of them so he has to start contacting officers and departments that wanted them.

PO's for agency drop ships will be processed as usual.

Apparently there is someone (airman?) charged by USAF with involuntary manslaughter in the dead of the airman shot by the M18.

I have found not much beyond that, but it gives me pause. Maybe not the roiling mob, but I want to know more.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

A nice milled steel sear with a double height shelf would be nice.

I’d imagine it would “defeat” the good trigger feel, no???

A longer pull wouldn't hurt my feelings.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Apparently there is someone (airman?) charged by USAF with involuntary manslaughter in the dead of the airman shot by the M18.

I have found not much beyond that, but it gives me pause. Maybe not the roiling mob, but I want to know more.

Yes check page 59 and an additional source posted on post of page 60.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

A longer pull wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Nor mine as well. . I just think it’s one of those “SIG differentiators” they are trying so hard to keep (light short trigger/no dingus etc. ). Personally I fall in the came that there should either be a safety on a duty trigger or a bit more travel/weight. I don’t mean NY Glock or going to DA or anything but something more than the 320 has. I’m an odd duck though as I don’t look for the lightest crispest trigger on my defensive guns.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by sw4566:
Mr. Jones, I know this because I am the Glock "rep". More precisely, I am the Regional Sales Manager for both LE and Commercial Sales, for the entire Eastern U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico. There is no stoppage of COA sales for "two years" as claimed. There are no current US military orders of any consequence for COA pistols. Agency drop ships are taking longer due to unprecedented demand,so as a cautionary measure, some agencies are being told that their delivery date may push out to 180 days from date of PO being issued.

Well, I tried to tell people here without telling them directly, because it is not information to divulge, but now they know. If any member here can speak knowledgeably on the subject of current Glock sales, it is you.

Thank you sir.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
Apparently there is someone (airman?) charged by USAF with involuntary manslaughter in the dead of the airman shot by the M18.

I have found not much beyond that, but it gives me pause. Maybe not the roiling mob, but I want to know more.

This facility (ICBM base) should have video of this incident. I'd be surprised if there was a single square foot of the whole base that didn't have video coverage.

"It's not a Glock, it's a Sig!"

^^^And it didn’t just go off by itself:

“In 2016, the Roscommon County Sheriff’s Department in Michigan concluded that a seat-belt buckle depressed the trigger of an officer’s P320 as he stepped out of his patrol vehicle, court records show. The incident was captured on the officer’s body camera, but neither the gun nor the seat belt is visible.” Link

Apparently, stuff getting caught in holsters happens:

Holster buckle in S&W M&P 45:

Buckle is Likely Cause of Accidental Discharge of Deputy’s Gun

Special needs kid’s finger Glock 22 in Safariland 6360:

Maplewood police will stop using specific firearm holster after student's misfire

Excerpt:
"It's not defective, per se," Police Cmdr. Dave Kvam said. "But there are a combination of factors and elements outside the brand's control. ... There's always a balance between security and accessibility. Safariland can make the holster more secure, but that could mean it's more difficult to access [the firearm]."

But wait, there’s more:

Here’s a P320 the officer said just went off in his holster:
Sheriff fires Pasco deputy whose gun discharged in middle school cafeteria

Excerpt:
“Nocco said surveillance video showed Cross lifting the Sig Sauer P320 in and out of its holster. It’s unclear whether his finger or some other object engaged the trigger, Nocco said.

The round struck a wall behind Cross. There were about 10 students in the lunchroom at the time.

A student told a detective he had in the past seen Cross lifting his weapon up and down out of its holster, and Cross admitted during the investigation that he had a bad habit of fidgeting with his gun, Nocco said.“

This message has been edited. Last edited by: trapper189,

quote:

A student told a detective he had in the past seen Cross lifting his weapon up and down out of its holster, and Cross admitted during the investigation that he had a bad habit of fidgeting with his gun, Nocco said.“

I have seen people doing that on the IDPA and USPSA range. Drives me nuts, even though it is a cold range.

I am hoping someone can answer a question.
Of the videos and instances, law suits, etc, that claim a P320 uncommand discharged in its holster, what is factually known about the holsters?
Are there possibilities that certain holster types, duty, wml, retention, etc are more common in the cases?
Is there a study that lists case by case what type of holster and the circumstances surrounding the incident?

^^ Question 1 - Basically Nothing
- Question 2 - Absolutely!
- Question 3 - Nope...Nobody seems to care about any of that!

You see, the internet has already decided...SIG is Guilty, the P320 is defective and it MUST be recalled, AND Ron Cohen must pay with his head on a pike! Of course NOBODY seems to be able to determine what is happening to holstered P320 Pistols, except that it discharges when you pull the trigger.

If something dangerous is so glaringly obvious about the design of the most popular duty holsters in the world, you would think Sig would have pointed it out a long time ago and addressed it. These incidents have been going on for several years now. They can't explain why P320s are the only pistols having issues. Also, keys don't just attack P320 pistols by the way. Way more Glocks out there not having any issues. The math doesn't add up.

^^ And the Audi 5000, along with nearly all Toyota models were considered defective, AND dangerous due to Uncommanded Acceleration. There were numerous deaths, so it must've been true...

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ And the Audi 5000, along with nearly all Toyota models were considered defective AND dangerous due to Uncommanded Acceleration. There were numerous deaths, so it must've been true...

Glad you brought up the car analogy. I had a 2017 TRD Pro Tacoma that had an uncommanded acceleration once. I had to get on the brakes pretty good to bring it to a stop. Scared the living hell out of me. Never did it again. The dealer was baffled. I'm certain it would have been extremely difficult for me to prove it actually happened. I'm sure Toyota would not cooperate with my investigation. Reminds me of P320s.

nhracecraft, can you explain why P320s are the only gun having issues with keys and poor LE training?

^^ The Toyota UA cases were largely determined to be operator error, with the driver applying pressure to the accelerator, either directly (wrong pedal), or indirectly, with the floor mat between the right foot and the accelerator. Hmmm, reminds me of the P320s too.

And since you're indicating 'the math doesn't add up', typically when you solve a math problem, you need to identify all the variables before you can solve the problem. In the meantime, I'm waiting on GrayGuns to provide some reliable insight into what is happening to holstered P320 Pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ The Toyota UA cases were largely determined to be operator error, with the driver applying pressure to the accelerator, either directly (wrong pedal), or indirectly, with the floor mat between the right foot and the accelerator. Hmmm, reminds me of the P320s too.

This does sound like something Toyota Sig would say.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
And since you're indicating 'the math doesn't add up', typically when you solve a math problem, you need to identify all the variables before you can solve the problem.

It's a simple question. I would like to hear your answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

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Originally posted by 92fstech:

Can you simplify that into practical actions? I remain somewhat confused about sear perch.

Assuming the correct parts are in the gun but it is reassembled incorrectly to create the sear perch, will that unsafe condition be cleared by racking the slide?

Example, after I clean my guns and reassemble them, I always rack the slide several times to ensure everything feels normal, and then I dry fire it once before loading it.

Ok, here it goes. Sorry, this is long, so buckle up.

My initial reaction was that sear perch does not exist with correct parts, and had only been demonstrated when installing a 10mm takedown safety lever into a 9mm/.40/.357 FCU. This was my knowledge and experience prior to yesterday. That has changed as a result of some testing I did to make sure I was responding to your question accurately.

First let me break down the takedown process and what is happening inside the gun.

For the takedown lever to be rotated to the “disassembly” position, the magazine must be removed and the slide needs to either be held or locked to the rear. The takedown lever will not rotate with the slide in the forward position, and it will not rotate with a magazine inserted into the magwell because of a tab on the takedown safety lever.

When the takedown lever is moved into the “disassembly” position, it pushes the takedown safety lever (black metal bar on the left side of the FCU) to the rear. This then performs several functions:

1. It lowers the sear below the point of being able to engage the striker

2. A small horizontal tab on the takedown safety lever protrudes into the magwell preventing a mag from being inserted when the gun is in “disassembly” condition

3. A small vertical tab at the front of the horizontal tab engages the back of the slide catch and holds the takedown safety lever in this rearward position until the slide catch lever is raised, releasing the takedown safety lever to move forward (which in turn releases the sear to rise back into its normal position and removes the obstruction from the magwell).

The way it’s supposed to work is that the tab on the takedown safety lever should hold the lever in position to keep the sear completely lowered until it is released by raising the slide catch lever. This is the way it works on 8 out of the 10 guns that I tested yesterday.

Normally a person would re-assemble their gun by installing the slide, locking it to the rear with the slide catch, then rotating the takedown lever into the “assembled” position, and then releasing the slide to go forward. When this is done, the sear is released upwards, it catches and fully engages the striker hook, and the gun is now in normal operating condition. That works properly 100% of the time in every one of the guns that I tested.

However, this reassembly process isn't always followed in the correct order. I say this, because I’ve seen it. I have at least two guys who demonstrated that they hold the slide to the rear manually (without the slide catch), rotate the lever, and then let the slide fall back forward. Why? Because they were taught to do it that way with their P229s and developed the habit. But when you do this with a P320, you get a dead trigger, because the takedown safety lever is still held to the rear by the tab against the slide catch, so the sear never rises and isn’t catching the striker at all. There’s ZERO engagement...IF everything works as it should.

The issue I discovered yesterday was with my gun. I’ve never encountered the issue before, because I put my gun back together the right way. But when I tried it the wrong way, I got a different result.

If I rotate the takedown lever back into the “assembled” position on my gun without engaging the slide catch, my sear does not stay fully depressed. It rises part of the way, but not all of the way. This is enough to allow it to engage the striker, but not fully. I believe this is the condition that people are referring to as “sear perch”. I noticed this because after re-assembling my gun in the improper manner, I was able to pull the trigger and drop the striker, instead of the dead trigger that I expected. When that happened, I started looking closer and discovered the different behavior.

Picture 1: Takedown lever in “disassembly” position, sear fully depressed.



Picture 2: Takedown lever rotated back to “assembled” position, slide catch lever lifted to allow sear to return to fully upward position.



Picture 3: Takedown lever rotated back to “assembled position”, but the slide catch lever has not been lifted to release the takedown safety lever. The sear should remain in the fully depressed position like in Picture 1, but you can clearly see that it has risen to an intermediate position between fully depressed and fully upward.



Looking through the back of the gun with the slide slightly retracted, I can see that the striker hook is only engaging about 50% of the sear surface in this condition. Maybe less. I tried to photograph it…it wasn’t easy and it may not be clearly visible. When I raise the slide catch and release the sear to its full upward position, my striker/sear engagement goes back to 100%.

Picture 4: Proper, complete striker/sear engagement



Picture 5: Incomplete striker engagement (or “sear perch”) with the gun re-assembled with a partially depressed sear as described above




For the record, I did beat on the gun, twist it, squeeze the slide, etc. and I was still unable to get the striker to drop, even in this “perched” position. I also believe that the striker safety block would have been effective even if the striker had dropped, because the striker safety lever remains in its completely down position.

I took apart one of the guns that was working as I expected and compared the takedown safety levers on both guns. They are clearly from two different batches, have different numbering on them, and there is a little nub at the rear of the one on my gun that is not present on the one from the other gun. Also, when installed in the guns, the tab that rests against the slide catch lever on the “good” gun is in full engagement when the takedown lever is in the “disassembly” position, but on my gun there is a small gap between them that allows for some forward travel when the takedown lever is rotated back into the “assembled” position…which I believe allows for the upward movement of the sear

Picture 6: Overhead view of two different FCUs showing the relationship between the takedown safety lever tabs and the slide catch lever. Both of these FCU’s are configured with the takedown lever in the “disassembled” position for this photo. The FCU on the left is my “problem” gun. The FCU on the right is a gun that is not exhibiting this behavior. You can clearly see the gap between the tab and the slide catch lever in the one on the left, while the tab in the one on the right is in contact with the slide catch lever.



I swapped the takedown safety lever from the other gun into my gun, and my gun began performing like I would expect it to perform…if I re-assembled it improperly, the striker stayed fully down and I had a dead trigger with zero striker/sear engagement. So the issue is clearly the takedown safety lever that came with my duty gun from the factory.

This gun is from a more recent batch than the others I looked at. I’m not sure if I have an out of spec part or if something in the design changed that allowed for this behavior. I’m don't believe it's a .45/10mm takedown safety lever because a.) we don’t have any of those and b.) I can’t insert a 9mm mag with the takedown lever in the “disassembly” position, which I would be able to do were it the 10mm version, and c.) I watched the Grayguns video that compares the two and mine clearly has the tab that the .45/10mm version lacks.

Picture 7: Comparison view showing the two different takedown safety levers and their markings. The top one is from the gun that is working properly. The bottom one is the one that can be used to create the “sear perch” condition.




After completing the tests above I inspected two more guns from the same batch as my gun, and was able to replicate the same “sear perch” behavior with both of them. The markings on their takedown safety levers matched those on mine as well. These guns were purchased as factory 9mm P320RX guns around 2021 or 2022…so relatively recently. I haven't been able to inspect the others from that batch for this behavior yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if they all do it. So far no gun that I've inspected that wasn't part of this particular batch has exhibited that behavior.


This is concerning, but far from a “smoking gun” explanation for the P320 problems. One, I had to re-assemble the gun using a non-intuitive and improper sequence to even create the perched sear condition in the first place. Two, I wasn’t able to get the striker to drop, even with the sear “perched”, and even after banging it around, twisting, squeezing, and pulling on it. Three, the striker safety block would have still been engaged and caught the striker if it had managed to drop from the sear.

I'll be calling Sig tomorrow. We’ll see what they say.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

It's a simple question. I would like to hear your answer.

Still there, nhracecraft? Still no clue why P320s are the only pistols having issues with keys getting into the holsters of poorly trained officers?