Hmm. Let’s say a new vacuum cleaner hit the market from Dyson (brand irrelevant). It does an amazing job cleaning, but for some inexplicable reason it powers on, seemingly at random. Night/day doesn’t matter. Dog brushes up against it, something shifts in the closet, extremely small power surge over the recharging base. Who knows. Whatever is causing the issue is certainly not an intentional power on. What do you think the reaction would be if Dyson’s statement was simply: “User error”?

quote:

Originally posted by Vgex:
Hmm. Let’s say a new vacuum cleaner hit the market from Dyson (brand irrelevant). It does an amazing job cleaning, but for some inexplicable reason it powers on, seemingly at random. Night/day doesn’t matter. Dog brushes up against it, something shifts in the closet, extremely small power surge over the recharging base. Who knows. Whatever is causing the issue is certainly not an intentional power on. What do you think the reaction would be if Dyson’s statement was simply: “User error”?

I don't think it matters what SIG does. Or anybody else under the current tort bar.

SIG sees something in advance and proactively fixes it? That's NEGLIGENCE in design. You, too, may be entitled to COMPENSATION.

SIG and others do investigations and find that there is an explanation for the issue with a valid workaround?That's NEGLIGENCE in outcome. You, too, may be entitled to COMPENSATION..

Right or wrong, it's a no win for SIG. And a win for the anti's.

quote:

Originally posted by ruger357:
Then that’s a bad design and a flaw in my opinion.

No it's not.
It all depends on the use for said pistol in its civilian form.

quote:

Originally posted by Vgex:
Hmm. Let’s say a new vacuum cleaner hit the market from Dyson (brand irrelevant). It does an amazing job cleaning, but for some inexplicable reason it powers on, seemingly at random. Night/day doesn’t matter. Dog brushes up against it, something shifts in the closet, extremely small power surge over the recharging base. Who knows. Whatever is causing the issue is certainly not an intentional power on. What do you think the reaction would be if Dyson’s statement was simply: “User error”?

This is the Boogie Man Theory where something randomly turns on by itself.
The P320 uncommanded discharges are all motion related.

The P320 doesn't have a Boogie Man inside that discharges the pistol at random times.
With all the media hype, a lot of people believe this.
The civilian version P320 is simply less tolerant of rough handling, poorly fitted holsters, FOD in holsters, etc, etc.
Why ? Striker fired gun with no external safeties.

quote:

The P320 uncommanded discharges are all motion related.

That’s actually not an unusual occurrence for a duty gun….

Rough handling isn't causing the P320 to discharge. Neither is dropping it. Pulling the trigger is doing it.

One might argue that the spring is weak and that the geometries make it easier than other guns to touch the trigger. So a poorly fitting holster may allow something that shouldn't be there to snag the trigger (shirt tail, keys, et). One might argue that holsters accommodating a weapon light are moving the trigger when the pistol is pressed too far into the holster.

So far there is no credible evidence that jostling or dropping the pistol is causing the sear to slip free. Neither is fondling it or pressing on the magazine.

It isn't clear that any of the discharges occurred while in a properly fitting holster that doesn't have the weapon light bucket without anything in the holster that shouldn't be there. Aside from discharges when carried improperly (loose in a backpack, etc) or in weapon light duty holsters, there isn't data showing an abnormal rate of unexpected discharges.

Yup. Rough handling ain’t lighting these off. Pulling the trigger is. In every single instance to date they have yet to make one of these just go off. Internet boogeyman indeed. It might be a poor choice for many but for fucks sake stop with the it just went bang lunacy.

THIS is why...





It's a real puzzler as to how something other than the P320 might get in the holster!

These are pics of a Safariland 6000 Series Duty Holster for a P320 with Weapon Light. All manner of shit can get in, fall in, and/or potentially get lodged in there and interact with the trigger, to include jackets, zipper pulls, shirts, keys, seat belt buckles, coins, pens, small fingers, flashlights, and the list goes on...You name it! To borrow a familiar and overused phrase, 'you could drive a truck through there'!

The previous pics were stolen from the following thread:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/5860055215

At this point, this issue clearly seems to be occurring exclusively with 'holstered' P320 Pistols. If it were a P320 issue, we'd see discharges occurring in other circumstances...Except we're not! It's NOT rough handling, something is depressing the Trigger!

Yeah, 6000 series were bad for this. The 7000 series isn't much better.

This is my 7360 holster

Thanks for the holstered images.

Is there a logical comparison we could make with a Glock in a duty holster?

Even without the first cup of coffee allow me to construct an argument…

If holster design allows trigger access, by foreign object, and P320 have UCD only from such holsters, while Glock do not have UCD, then

A. The Glock holster does not allow trigger access OR
B. The Glock safety trigger prevents UCD OR
C. The Glock trigger force is sufficiently strong to prevent its movement in the holster OR
D. Some interactive or complementary combination of these features prevents UCD

Except Glocks DO have NDs caused by trigger incursions in the holster. You just don't hear about them because the Internet doesn't care because they're not P320s.

A number of years ago "Glock Leg" was a hot topic, but ultimately it was shown that this was a result of stuff getting snagged on the trigger, not the gun just going off by itself. User negligence is a much less exciting story than a "self-firing" pistol, and much harder to sue the manufacturer for, so when somebody shoots themself with a Glock these days the media doesn't care.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Except Glocks DO have NDs caused by trigger incursions in the holster. You just don't hear about them because the Internet doesn't care because they're not P320s.

I don't believe this at all. If someone posted a legitimate video of a Glock going off in a duty holster, it would break the Internet.


As far as holsters are concerned, if Sig believes these holsters with the partially covered triggers are dangerous, they better have a damn good reason for including this POS holster with my latest upgrades P320. Lawyers will have a field day with this one.

Absolute bullshit Jupiter. I have described in this very thread that I own a very expensive, very nice, high end Safariland ALS holster. It a 6000 something for my G19 with an X300. I spent a small fortune on mine, fabric wrapped, it’s awesome. And I put the gun in there one time and instantly said “nope”. I even tried to sell it here at a massive discount and it didn’t sell. I haven’t carried a live weapon in it a single time. If somebody deserves to be sued, it is Safariland for making a wildly dangerous holster for duty use.

Those wml holsters are awful. If I was a cop I would never carry one that looked like my top shelf Safariland. Fully holstered I can stick any finger, thumb, any object in fact, into the gaping maw that is there.

Are you so determined to be right in this thread that you actually believe Glock leg went away? That ND’s with Glocks don’t happen because of the magic dingus? That’s stupid bullshit and you know it. The trigger safety helps. Helps a lot in fact. It isn’t magic though. Glocks ND plenty as 92fs stated. Nobody is wasting their breath though reporting that on tik tok because nobody believes when a Glock goes off now that it wasn’t a simple ND caused by inattention or complacency or bad gun handling. A 320 goes off and a band of guys like you instantly act like it just went off even though no one has produced a single fact to back it up. Just stop. Or don’t I guess, but you sound like an 16 tik tok influencer every time you repeat the internet mantra “320’s just go off”. (and yes that is exactly what you have implied multiple times in this thread)

Cops want weapon mounted lights. There is no way to make a holster that fits tight enough around the trigger guard to prevent something from getting in there and a P320 from firing. I’ve said it before, Safariland needs to quit making holsters for the P320. At the very least, for weapon mounted lights. As should every other manufacturer.

Or, Sig needs to admit the idea of a cocked and unlocked duty pistol is maybe, not the best idea.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Absolute bullshit Jupiter. I have described in this very thread that I own a very expensive, very nice, high end Safariland ALS holster. It a 6000 something for my G19 with an X300. I spent a small fortune on mine, fabric wrapped, it’s awesome. And I put the gun in there one time and instantly said “nope”. I even tried to sell it here at a massive discount and it didn’t sell. I haven’t carried a live weapon in it a single time. If somebody deserves to be sued, it is Safariland for making a wildly dangerous holster for duty use.

Those wml holsters are awful. If I was a cop I would never carry one that looked like my top shelf Safariland. Fully holstered I can stick any finger, thumb, any object in fact, into the gaping maw that is there.

Kinda like this, pedropcola?



I was able to pull the trigger while fully holstered with my finger, a pen, and a seatbelt with this Sig supplied holster. It's not even a WML holster for God's sake. If Sig is on record talking about the massive hole being a safety issue prior to including POS holsters like this with their pistols, they have a problem. Could it be that Sig isn't concerned about the civilian market because police officers are the only ones that have fingers, pens and a seatbelt in their car?

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
A 320 goes off and a band of guys like you instantly act like it just went off even though no one has produced a single fact to back it up. Just stop. Or don’t I guess, but you sound like an 16 tik tok influencer every time you repeat the internet mantra “320’s just go off”. (and yes that is exactly what you have implied multiple times in this thread)

I'm implying that the trigger on a P320 is too easy to pull.
Some of us know the difference between Glock leg and what is being reported and caught on video over and over and over again with the P320.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
COVIDP320…

If only there was a way to combine this thread with the Covid thread over in the lounge. There would be a lot less disagreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I'm implying that the trigger on a P320 is too easy to pull.
Some of us know the difference between Glock leg and what is being reported and caught on video over and over and over again with the P320.

Virtually ALL of these incidents are occurring with holstered P320 Pistols. I would contend that it's completely absurd position to conclude that the Trigger is 'too easy to pull', when the Pistol is IN THE HOLSTER! This IS the responsibility of the operator, and if said operator does not exhibit appropriate care and respect of a loaded firearm, BAD things can and WILL happen!

If the operator is irresponsible, sports cars can get going too fast too easily, and as a result they are over represented in accidents involving speed and carelessness...But NOBODY would take the position that they should be banned, or that Chevrolet needs admit it's unsafe and 'fix' the Corvette because it's too easy to depress the accelerator!

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Except Glocks DO have NDs caused by trigger incursions in the holster. You just don't hear about them because the Internet doesn't care because they're not P320s.

I don't believe this at all.

Well, believe it or not, it does happen.

There was a spate of them among cops back in the 2000s involving the adjustment cords on duty jackets. So much so that it became a teaching point. And all the major cop clothing manufacturers removed/repositioned their adjustment cords.

More recently, a few years back there were at least two examples in a short period of School Resource Officers having UDs inside schools when hanging out with a gaggle of kids in the lunch room at an elementary school and a kid reaches into their holster through the gap and pulled the trigger. We discussed that in a few threads here. Maybe even earlier in this one.

There are several other examples I can recall over the years on incidents involving stuff getting into the trigger guard of holsters, especially when someone tosses their Glock in a WML duty holster into a gear bag with a bunch of loose crap rattling around inside.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
Yeah, 6000 series were bad for this. The 7000 series isn't much better.

The good news is that this era is coming to an end shortly, due to a combination of holster redesigns and shrinking WMLs.

Safariland's latest Vault ALS/SLS holsters are massively overbuilt monsters, but at least their triggers are fully covered.



And their new Solis ALS holster also fully covers the trigger, but is only available for compact guns with compact WMLs like the TLR-7.



Once they perfect compact WMLs that are no wider than the width of the slide/frame but with the full brightness/throw/battery life of the current large duty WMLs, that will be the final nail in the coffin of this "gun bucket WML tunnel trigger guard gap". (The newest ones like the TLR-7 HL-X are getting there, so I suspect it won't be many more years.)

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

Well, believe it or not, it does happen.

Just to be clear, RogueJSK, I was responding to the comment "You just don't hear about them because the Internet doesn't care because they're not P320s."

We have all heard stories of incidents like this. The reason for the discharge was usually pretty clear minus a great LE conspiracy to blame Glock. If that is what's happening here, there should be plenty of evidence to show this.
We should have a boat load of videos of Glocks discharging when simple stepping out of a vehicle or placing a hand on the butt of a pistol.

There you go again. You are quite clearly implying they just go off by “stepping out of a vehicle” or “touching the gun butt”.

You sound like the typical internet goofball. If you keep repeating the same nonsense enough times you believe it to be true.

This is why nobody takes your input on this seriously. You just can’t help yourself. “I’m not saying they just go off”. Then immediately, “they just go off”. No. They don’t.

Posting pictures of sigs shitty free holster has no bearing on this topic. At all. I’ve had probably a dozen of those holsters or more. They end up in the trash because they are trash. Honest question since I think based on your comments the answer is no. Have you ever owned or worn one of the wml Safariland duty style holsters being discussed? I say no because if you had you would know you don’t have to jam anything into the trigger guard area. On my 6000 series I can put my finger on the trigger without even touching the holster. It’s that big. Your pictures are like that guy who screwed a deck screw into the frame to prove his point. It’s silly. As shitty as sigs free holster is, you can’t drop a roll of dimes into the gap. Safariland duty holsters you can. It’s that bad. It’s why I ate a $150 holster, horrendous design. Makes SERPA look well designed.