Zombie thread.... LOL

Just attaching this:

quote:

Originally posted by mbliss57:
One thing about this thread ( I read all 4 pages) that seems lacking is data. I am sure this many can back up the improved 9mm ballistics that now match the ballistics/ stopping power, gel test penetration of the .40 cal. (I am skeptical that this is true) But I did not see any links to this data.

Here you go:
https://www.luckygunner.com/la...mmo-ballistic-tests/

Dsiets
It's the 9mm bullet. There's been more research and development on the 9mm bullet in the last fifteen
years than any bullet in history. The result is there's now several 9mm bullets that have penetration and permeant wound channels so impressive plus the other things being mentioned by posters.
The best? Rather subjective. Everyone has their
choice SD 9mm ammo.
Poli Viejo

When you remember why the .40 even came along (10mm still available) and the improvements in 9mm there is really no use for it. Tons of police agencies aren't getting rid of them for no reason.

The 9MM Luger was adopted by the Nazis. It over time has became the International caliber of all the Socialist Nations. The U.S. and Canada now also qualify for the 9MM.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Bridger:
The 9MM Luger was adopted by the Nazis. It over time has became the International caliber of all the Socialist Nations. The U.S. and Canada now also qualify for the 9MM.

9mm was adopted by a number of countries around the world many decades before the Nazis, including Germany.

9mm was introduced in 1902 and first adopted in 1904, which was 30 years before the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933. 9mm had been the standard pistol round for the Germany military for nearly three decades by the time the Nazis took power; they simply continued using it as before.

The Communist/Socialist countries around the world generally did not use 9mm Luger as a primary caliber, relying instead on the free-flowing Soviet military aid in calibers like 9mm Makarov and 7.62 Tokarev.

But thanks for trying to interject politics into a non-political thread. Stick around for a while and you'll discover that's frowned upon in this establishment... especially when your assertions are so wrong.

Here's the directive from the owner of the forum himself: https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...250066464#2250066464

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Bridger:
The 9MM Luger was adopted by the Nazis. It over time has became the International caliber of all the Socialist Nations. The U.S. and Canada now also qualify for the 9MM.

I'm sorry. I was just reading through this thread and thought this was funny as hell.

.45 acp, the defensive caliber of free people everywhere.

Biggest reason 40 is falling in popularity is pretty simple. A large portion of people follow trends instead of just sticking with what works for them. Personally I don't care what you shoot as long as you shoot and aren't telling me what to or not to shoot! Personally I never cared for 40, 357 sig, 45 GAP, and a slew of others. Ive owned enough 40s to know it doesn't give me enough benefit over 9mm or 45acp, and never has. But a lot of people like it and thats great, it works fine.

Caliber arguments are like boxers or briefs arguments. I don't care what you wear. Somebody asks a question and somebody has to pretend their wang is bigger than someone else's and go back and forth or try to insult instead of just talking. LoL.

Maybe,

After the 10MM was introduced, it was found that a significant population of American shooters were too short and weak to appreciate its merits, and the .40 S&W was the solution.

The .40 S&W enjoyed significant success with law enforcement agencies for many years, until it was recognized that too many diversity-enhanced hires were too short and weak to qualify.

The bean counters directed a tide change back down to 9MM, and here we are.

Or, maybe not.

https://youtu.be/0k5OVEx7YVY


I recall one of the test law enforcement agencies did back in the 90's was barrier penetration through car doors. The LEO agencies use JHP rounds (147 JHP 9MM vs 180 JHP 40 S&W)for the test, whereas the video used FMJ rounds.

Typically a driver/passenger door was used for the test representing LEO would make contact at the vehicle. At that time, the 40 S&W 180 grain JHP did penetrate through the driver/passenger door better.
(These doors had the additional interior metal support for side impact and window support.)Behind the test door(s) were paper targets showing where the impact of the rounds went.

The 9MM round deflected and bounced around the interior of the door and eventually stuck the paper target, usually in a downward pattern. The 9MM lost some of it's energy and had some jacket separation from the bullet.

The 40 JHP was able to retain most of it's energy and jacket on the bullet. Deflection was not an issue. LEO management at the time believed this was the superior round choice over the 9MM and 45 ACP.

The felt recoil on the 40 S&W was slightly more than a 9MM, round capacity was typically the same as 9MM ( HK USP 40, Glcok 22/23, exception to the rule was the S&W 4006 model). The downside was after awhile stress on frames & slides were showing on the pistols (Cheaper to replace ammo than a gun platform).

By the mid 2000's technology caught up with the 9MM and vast improvements for the 9MM such as bonded jackets and bullet designs help improved the ballistic performance of the round. By that time most agencies who used the 40 S&W caliber pistols had them for 10-15 yrs.

After the FBI made a big deal from switching from the 9MM to 10MM and then to the 40 S&W. Most Leo agencies followed their lead. And when the FBI went back to the 9MM in the late 2000's, again everyone followed their lead. The FBI ballistic testing solidified the new 9MM JHP design(s).

The 40 S&W is not dead rather, it has a back seat in today's popular caliber race (9MM, 40S&W, 45ACP). As for I, if they had the Star Trek "phaser" I would use that . Happy Memorial Day all.

They're getting rid of it for one main reason. Cost. If 9mm and .40 cost the same, it would still be the dominant LE cartridge in this country. But the bureaucrats need to control their budgets.

And to be honest, the effectiveness of the ammo in their cops guns is far from their first priority.

quote:

Originally posted by AZ Husker:
When you remember why the .40 even came along (10mm still available) and the improvements in 9mm there is really no use for it. Tons of police agencies aren't getting rid of them for no reason.

I don't shoot my 40 Cal.much,but I still like them as much as I did when I bought them.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
They're getting rid of it for one main reason. Cost.

While that's certainly a primary factor, controllability/recoil is another main reason.

At least around here, there's been a "dumbing down" of firearms qualifications over the past couple decades, in order to help marginal shooters limp through. Going with 9mm to reduce felt recoil is another facet of this. (Similar to the FBI's reasoning for pushing .40 to begin with, as a replacement for their hard to control 10mm.)

The number of marginal shooters seems to be increasing. Most cops these days are not "gun guys/gals", and do minimal training on their own. Plus, many new recruits I train nowadays have never shot a handgun before. And this is in the South, where gun ownership is more common than elsewhere.


If you can get functionally the same effect on target with a cheaper, easier to control round, there's little incentive for departments not to.

.45 ACP.

Accept no substitutes.

Many of our decisions about weapons or ammunition involve self-fulfillment of one’s own prophecies, or at least succumbing to one’s own preconceptions.

Getting somewhat long in the tooth, I am subject to more and more infirmities, including various aches and pains. A couple of weeks ago I fired a few rounds of 40 S&W and thought, “Man, that hurts my wrist.” Today, however, I had another training session with a friend scheduled and decided that because I rely on 357 SIG for carry, I still needed to not limit my practice to the lighter-recoiling 9mm that’s more pleasant to shoot.

Before the training course I fired some practice rounds and again noticed how snappy the recoil was, especially with that particular load. But once I got into the course itself with its high speed engagements including transitions among targets and between weapons, I no longer noticed any difference with the 40.
Expect, and ye shall receive—at least for now.

Based on the fact that I can’t find 9mm in stock anywhere, .40 starts looking a lot more desirable. SGammo has 10mm Blazer for less per round than either One FWIW

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Maybe,

shooters were too short and weak to appreciate



Or, maybe not.

I see what you did there

quote:

Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Nice thing about it falling out somewhat is .40 cal pistols and ammo are getting dirt cheap!
Just picked up a nice P229 for $400!
Thanks 9mm fans!

Im with you.. I have recently picked 2 40cals A glock 22 and Sig 226 The 9mm versions of these to fine weapons were 100-125
bucks more

quote:

Originally posted by daveinbucksco:

quote:

Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Nice thing about it falling out somewhat is .40 cal pistols and ammo are getting dirt cheap!
Just picked up a nice P229 for $400!
Thanks 9mm fans!

Im with you.. I have recently picked 2 40cals A glock 22 and Sig 226 The 9mm versions of these to fine weapons were 100-125
bucks more

I personally like .40 caliber. I have multiple pistols in .40 and hope that the ammunition becomes cheaper & cheaper over time.

Nursing several boxes. The p239 seems to like it.