I recently came across some of this ammo and was wondering if anyone ever shot it and what was the results? From what I see online it was produced as a special round for the military and police in Germany.

I found the below article that has some information I wasn’t familiar with, specifically that they were (supposedly) originally developed for flattening vehicle tires. The article author expressed ignorance about how they would be more effective than normal FMJ bullets for that purpose, but by cutting an open hole rather than one that would tend to close back up due to the elasticity of the rubber, the original claim seems plausible. At one time use of full wadcutter style bullets was recommended for the tire-flattening purpose for the same reason. I saw a demonstration of the difference during training in the mid-1980s.

The author also mentions their possible expansion—which seems very unlikely, and in those days the Germans didn’t like expanding hollow point handgun bullets and were illegal in the country as I recall. The author’s claim about hollow point bullets in cartridges like the 44-40 having led to their being banned by the Hague Convention, though, is totally bizarre, and indicates he had no problem just making stuff up based on his imagination. From what I read about the bullet myself, there was no mention of any expansion, and its being a hollow tube would totally defeat the action of a normal hollow point.

https://gatdaily.com/articles/...ction-trauma-rounds/

The one tidbit of information about the ammunition I’m personally familiar with came from a man who was a member of what was the equivalent of a German state-level SWAT team in the early 1990s. He confirmed that the team used the B.A.T. rounds for a time, evidently because they were thought to cause more wound trauma than nonexpanding FMJ bullets. However, they discontinued using them after a training incident.

One of the things the team members did was take turns standing next to a target to simulate being a hostage when another member fired at the target with live ammunition. That was a training practice intended to foster confidence in each other’s skills. During one drill, the plastic plug of the B.A.T. bullet hit the police member, causing some injury. That was because the plug would fly at an unpredictable angle from the bullet’s flight.

I didn’t think to ask the German officer how serious the B.A.T. plug injury was, but it was evidently enough to discontinue their use. It’s also why we don’t want to use shotguns for hostage rescue shots or other situations when a bystander might be hit by a cup or wad.

If you actually have some of the ammo, it would be interesting to see how it performs in a gel test.

Added: There was another company that much later also offered ammunition with bullets that consisted of open copper tubes. As I recall, it used a sabot cup over the base to allow the bullets to be fired conventionally. I believe its claim to wound ballistics effectiveness was that it cut a plug of tissue, thereby causing more damage than would result from displacement and disruption as from a conventional bullet. There were no claims that those bullets expanded, and as far as I know they no longer exist either. The cutting rather than displacing action is occasionally still touted as a reason for using full wadcutter bullets in the 38 S&W Special cartridge for defensive purposes.

Edited for spelling.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

Added: There was another company that much later also offered ammunition with bullets that consisted of open copper tubes. As I recall, it used a sabot cup over the base to allow the bullets to be fired conventionally. I believe its claim to wound ballistics effectiveness was that it cut a plug of tissue, thereby causing more damage than would result from displacement and disruption as from a conventional bullet. There were no claims that those bullets expanded, and as far as I know they no longer exist either. The cutting rather than displacing action is occasionally still touted as a reason for using full wadcutter bullets in the 38 S&W Special cartridge for defensive purposes.

You might be referring to the PMC 66gr tubular bullets

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:
You might be referring to the PMC 66gr tubular bullets

Yes, those were the ones. Thanks.

The original post (mirabile dictu: a discussion related to firearms!) prompted me to conduct some more research, so thank you.

I couldn’t find any reference to a gel test of the Geco load, but this is a video about the test of the PMC ammunition from a couple of barrel lengths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF1zXHT3lXg&t=29s

Although the average (tiny sample) velocity of the PMC from a 4 inch barrel was nearly 1600 fps, due to the light 66 grain weight of the projectile its muzzle velocity was only 371 ft-lb. The claimed MV for the Geco 86* grain load was 1450 fps from 4 inches, or 401 ft-lb. Those figures are virtually identical to the 396 ft-lb energy of a 124 grain +P 9mm Luger bullet at 1200 fps, such as produced by Speer Gold Dot ammunition.

As the video demonstrated, there is no reason to believe claims that a tubular copper projectile would expand in flesh. If, however, like the PMC bullet the Geco projectile tumbled in flesh, that would deliver more energy more quickly to the target and penetrate less than something like a conventional round nose full metal jacket. That in itself might have supported the German police belief that the Geco round would have been a better load for their purposes while avoiding the use of an “evil” expanding bullet.

* Or 83.3 grains according to the 5.4 grams claimed on the box pictured in the article I linked.