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Why are Surefire silencers controversial? (and general Surefire observations) Login/Join 
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Sorry KSGM I left the wrong impression on the storage issue, the issue isn't technical it an NFA access issue.
On the minis surefire sure doesn't leave you any impression that you get anything for the extra size of the RC2. Their sound data shows the exact same sound levels out of a 10" barrel.
On Ti I trust my friends at Thunderbeast and they say the issue is purely one of temp. So I think you can do whatever you want to a Ti suppressor provided you don't exceed the temp ceiling. I'm sure that can vary by design and materials used. They provide a number (I have access to great thermal temp measuring stuff) and I never get even close to it. Surefire doesn't seem to give you much guidance.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10905 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are drawbacks to any suppressor design and mounting solution.

I own AAC, Silencero, Q, Dead Air, Surefire, and KAC cans. The Surefires have the best mounting solution in my opinion, followed closely by the KAC's (which are now stupid expensive).
 
Posts: 3419 | Location: Miami, FL | Registered: April 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A couple notes to add to this conversation:

I mentioned in another thread the fact that SF cans are allegedly test-fired before they leave the factory. The say that ever can is tested; not one from every batch of so-many. I think that is pretty slick, especially in the wake of Dead Air's Sierra5 debacle, as mentioned in the other thread. It's almost impossible for the end user to buy a faulty Surefire silencer.

My other note is not one of praise; though not necessarily a meaningful criticism either: My RC2 doesn't seal super well, at the rear of the can. After a range session, my support hand is thoroughly covered in soot; especially if I am using a forward grip of some kind. The filth is evident in cleaning the rear of the can as well; the latch components that are behind the sealing interfaces of the mount get a decent carbon caking. With regular maintenance, it's a non-issue; but certainly something worth mentioning.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KSGM:
A couple notes to add to this conversation:

I mentioned in another thread the fact that SF cans are allegedly test-fired before they leave the factory. The say that ever can is tested; not one from every batch of so-many. I think that is pretty slick, especially in the wake of Dead Air's Sierra5 debacle, as mentioned in the other thread. It's almost impossible for the end user to buy a faulty Surefire silencer.

My other note is not one of praise; though not necessarily a meaningful criticism either: My RC2 doesn't seal super well, at the rear of the can. After a range session, my support hand is thoroughly covered in soot; especially if I am using a forward grip of some kind. The filth is evident in cleaning the rear of the can as well; the latch components that are behind the sealing interfaces of the mount get a decent carbon caking. With regular maintenance, it's a non-issue; but certainly something worth mentioning.


Have you discussed this with Surefire? I'm curious what their response would be.




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Posts: 9647 | Location: Orlando, Florida | Registered: July 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's a thought. The last time I had correspondence with Surefire, it was regarding a flashlight that I felt wasn't performing as intended, and I sent it to them for inspection and/or service. It was a very confusing, protracted process, due to, what I perceived as, inefficient communication (and they likely felt the same). That being said, I am not eager to trade emails and phone calls with them again. I'll give it some thought though; the silencer department may be a different experience than lights.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Silencershop just reposted this video about the Surefire manufacturing process. Apparently they pulled it for "community guidelines" reasons on Youtube and have re-cut it to satisfy the overlords.

They fire three rounds per suppressor. Their data and process are impressive.



Pick the video up at about 43:30 and they talk about their data from test fires. They talk about a 0.57" group size over 90,000 rounds (30,000 suppresors) fired from their bench rigs. They are using very high end benchrest shooting rigs but those numbers are very impressive.
 
Posts: 5123 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I started the video from the beginning, and haven't finished it yet; I just saw the wire EDM for the bore. I don't know what goes on in other silencer factories, but I'd be surprised if they're all this impressive. SiCo probably has quite the operation, just due to their size; KAC is probably impressive as well, as they're sort of "fancy", like Surefre. I think part of the (not-so)secret sauce is the fact that they make only a few silencers, and they're all very similar in design (and they've been making them for a while). I am no SF fanboy, but that video sure makes me feel god about my recent purchases.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The welding process is what gets me. They're welding so precisely that the metal doesn't discolor and the baffle stack can be picked up by hand pretty much right after. Wild.
 
Posts: 5123 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Finished the video; pretty awesome. Two questions:

What silencer(s) did they replace, with that 2011 contract win? He mentioned the weight being 24oz; I don't think the M42000 was that heavy, and it was likely too new to be replaced in 2011. Was it an old KAC NT4, or perhaps a Gemtech HALO? I don't know exactly who used what silencers, but I think those three were in military service in the first half of the GWOT (excluding SPR silencers like the KAC SR25 can and the OpsINC).

Who was the silencer maker that Barry interned with? People talk about the SF cans being AEM-influenced; was it Mr. Allen?

As impressive as the welding process is, I think other manufacturers apply that technology to the same effect. I wonder what aspects of this production line are totally unique to SF. I thought the EDM of the final bore was impressive; is that something done by other manufacturers?

Another cool note was the attention paid to the source of raw materials. He didn't say they ended up with American titanium, but I think we can rest assured it ain't Chinese.

More of the same, but from a different person at SF:
https://www.silencershop.com/b...erview-with-surefire

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Another Surefire silencer-related observation: I recently got a Warden "blast diverter". I don't typically have an application for such a device, but some of my training has come to involve the use of blanks.

In the interest of using my regular rifle, and not having to swap to an A2 flash hider, to enable attachment of a BFA, I intend to create a blank-firing insert that will be held in place by the Warden. I know SF makes two different BFA devices, but they are both expensive and apparently not easy to come by. I am also aware that they make a fast-attach muzzle device that can accept a GI BFA; I'd rather retain the flexibility of being able to use their proven hiders and brakes.

Now that the context is established, I can get to the point: The Warden device is clearly not manufactured to the same standard as their silencers. As in, the fast-attach coupling in the back of the Warden is not taken directly from their silencers, and not tested to the same standard of fit and alignment. When the warden is placed onto the muzzle device, it rocks and wiggles, even though it is "seated" against the tapered flare; a silencer does not do that. When the Warden is tightened, it becomes noticeably canted, relative to the bore. Not enough to cause any functional problem, in the scope of it's intended use (nor mine), but enough that, if that same fast attach lockup was on the ass of a silencer, it would surely cause baffle strikes.

I found it interesting. I guess it makes sense to save money in the manufacturing process, to not apply the same strict parameters where they're not necessary.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting. Ecco Machine makes Bravo suppressor mounts out of those and the Trainer. You sent it to them, they cut the fake can off, thread it, do some other magic, and then you can put whatever 1.37x28 can on a Surefire muzzle device. If they're wobbly and loose, I'd hope that it's either something they know how to tighten up, or that you got a bad sample of or something, because nobody wants that for a suppressor mount.


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Posts: 16976 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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P220Smudge you sometimes know amazing odd stuff. I have a couple of those surefire trainers with no likely future use and that service to make a hub compatible mount from one is neat and I'll probably do it.

KSGM is the trainer ok as a BFA? Its mount is the normal surefire attachment.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10905 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had read before, on other forums, about folks sacrificing Wardens and trainers to make their own form1 silencers. It was my thought as well, that this would not be OK for that. I need to scrutinize things more. Maybe there's a stubborn carbon deposit on my brake that doesn't present a problem with my can, but does with the Warden.

quote:
KSGM is the trainer ok as a BFA?
If it has the open end: no. The BFA and "blank safety device" (BFA with live bullet trap) are closed off.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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maybe this is worth a separate post. But if one does the ecco machine thing to a trainer and you get a hub mount, how does one know if it fits in the target host? There is a length limit of the conversion and I don't see anyone who actually gives you that dimension in the specs of their hub suppressor????


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
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Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
P220Smudge you sometimes know amazing odd stuff.


LOL Big Grin

quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
I have a couple of those surefire trainers with no likely future use and that service to make a hub compatible mount from one is neat and I'll probably do it.


I was thinking of trying to track one down to do the same. I'm kinda considering doing the clone thing with one of my URGIs and this would make it... mostly correct, except for the can itself. Between the Instagram clout kids and guys looking to do the same mod, they tend to get snatched up immediately whenever they pop up, though.

quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
maybe this is worth a separate post. But if one does the ecco machine thing to a trainer and you get a hub mount, how does one know if it fits in the target host? There is a length limit of the conversion and I don't see anyone who actually gives you that dimension in the specs of their hub suppressor????


Being that they don't mention it at all on the page, I'm guessing it's not much of an issue. Could shoot them an email asking if the particular cans you're thinking of using will work with it. I hear they're pretty easy to work with.

Here's a guy using one with a Polonium. In fact, this is the thread that got me thinking about giving it a whirl.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/c...5/surefire_polonium/

In some further looking around, I did find this. It's a discussion of exactly what you're asking about. Based on what I'm reading here, I have to think you're going to be fine with probably anything but a really short K can of some sort.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Ar...vo-Mount-/55-543831/


Sorry for the drift, KSGM. In a way of tying it back in on topic... sort of, this is a way to get around having to buy a Surefire can if you happen to buy a rifle or upper that's got a pin and weld Surefire muzzle device, like Geissele's near-clone 14.5 URGI upper. If you find Surefire controversial or hate their stuff or don't want to pay the prices, this is a nice workaround.


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Posts: 16976 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's all SF silencer-related; so no drift concerns.

Funny though, considering the mount is something people have a problem with. Seems that it'd be counter-intuitive to spend more than it would cost to remove and re-P/W a different hider, on a HUB SF mount adapter. The option is neat though.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, it’s funny, there’s guys who send Surefire cans to Ecco to have him jailbreak them and convert them to HUB so they can be mounted with/on anything. Polar opposite.


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Posts: 16976 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was surprised that someone is not making a surefire to hub adapter as a commercial product. I couldn't find one (challenge to our suppressor web search specialist P220Smudge). I did found another company that like Ecco will steal from a trainer to make one. And to my original question above how to confirm fit they go to great lengths to specify the the length of the adapter after conversion and provide a warning about confirming fit. Which of course is my concern as I haven't bought the HUB can yet so I can't measure it. I'm sure the hub can mfg. would be able to tell me once I pick one.
I would not be surprised if eventually surefire made one to enhance their eco system, but they are pretty glacial about change.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 10905 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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send Surefire cans to Ecco to have him jailbreak them and convert them to HUB
That is perhaps even stranger still. I am of the opinion that a thread-together can is not ideal for "hard use"; I think fully welded is the way to go. So it seems counter-intuitive to compromise one of the most reputable hard use cans, by turning it into a HUB can. That's not to say that I think a HUB can is going to fail me; I just prefer welded. I use Rocksett in my TurboK; opting to surrender (easy) versatility, in the name of insurance.

quote:
surprised that someone is not making a surefire to hub adapter as a commercial product
Likely because it's still patented.

quote:
eventually surefire made one to enhance their eco system
I've heard it from a GSL rep that they (GSL) don't mess with HUB because they don't want to open up the customer service can of worms of users pairing their cans with whatever will screw in the back of them. The alternative scenario of users putting your mount interface into the back of someone else's can seems less daunting, but is still a can of worms. In that regard, I understand why SF hasn't gone there.
 
Posts: 1959 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
I was surprised that someone is not making a surefire to hub adapter as a commercial product. I couldn't find one (challenge to our suppressor web search specialist P220Smudge).


Lol, done. Big Grin
https://ottercreeklabs.com/pro.../shorefyre-1-375x24/

Note the last picture of the Surefire Cease & Desist. Andrew's lawyers are fighting it and word is they should be able to win.

quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
I would not be surprised if eventually surefire made one to enhance their eco system, but they are pretty glacial about change.


I'd be surprised if they did. Keeping people in the Surefire ecosystem is more to their benefit, and their C&D noted above speaks to that. I guess we'll see.


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Posts: 16976 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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