More than a year after a mandate for the Pentagon opened previously closed ground combat and special operations jobs to women, officials say the Navy has its first female candidates for its most elite special warfare roles.

Two women were in boot camp as candidates for the Navy's all-enlisted Special Warfare Combatant-Craft Crewman program, Naval Special Warfare Center Deputy Commander Capt. Christian Dunbar told members of the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service in June.

Another woman, who sources say is a junior in an ROTC program at an unnamed college, has applied for a spot in the SEAL officer selection process for fiscal 2018, which begins Oct. 1, and is set to complete an early step in the pipeline, special operations assessment and selection, later this summer, he said.

"That's a three-week block of instruction," Dunbar said. "Then the [prospective SEAL officer] will compete like everyone else, 160 [applicants] for only 100 spots."


A spokesman for Naval Special Warfare Command, Capt. Jason Salata, confirmed to Military.com this week that a single female enlisted candidate remained in the training pipeline for Special Warfare Combatant Crewman, or SWCC. The accession pipeline for the job, he added, included several screening evaluations and then recruit training at the Navy's Great Lakes, Illinois boot camp before Basic Underwater Demolition School training.

Salata also confirmed that a female midshipman is set to train with other future Naval officers in the SEAL Officer Assessment and Selection, or SOAS, course this summer.

"[SOAS] is part of the accession pipeline to become a SEAL and the performance of attendees this summer will be a factor for evaluation at the September SEAL Officer Selection Panel," he said.

Because of operational security concerns, Salata said the Navy would not identify the candidates or provide updates on their progress in the selection pipeline. In special operations, where troops often guard their identities closely to keep a low profile on missions, public attention in the training pipeline could affect a candidate's career.

It's possible, however, that the first female member of these elite communities will come not from the outside, but from within. In October, a SWCC petty officer notified their chain-of-command that they identified as being transgender, Salata confirmed to Military.com.

According to Navy policy guidance released last fall, a sailor must receive a doctor's diagnosis of medical necessity and command approval to begin the gender transition process, which can take a variety of different forms, from counseling and hormone therapy to surgery. Sailors must also prove they can pass the physical standards and requirements of the gender to which they are transitioning.

These first female candidates represent a major milestone for the Navy, which has previously allowed women into every career field except the SEALs and SWCC community. A successful candidate would also break ground for military special operations.

Army officials said in January that a woman had graduated Ranger school and was on her way to joining the elite 75th Ranger Regiment, but no female soldier has made it through the selection process to any other Army special operations element. The Air Force and Marine Corps have also seen multiple female candidates for special operations, but have yet to announce a successful accession.

The two women now preparing to enter the Navy's special operations training pipeline will have to overcome some of the most daunting attrition rates in any military training process

Dunbar said the SEALs, which graduate six Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL classes per year, have an average attrition rate of 73 to 75 percent, while the special boat operator community has an average attrition rate of 63 percent. The attrition rate for SEAL officers is significantly lower, though; according to the Navy's 2015 implementation plan for women in special warfare, up to 65 percent of SEAL officer candidates successfully enter the community.

But by the time they make it to that final phase of training, candidates have already been weeded down ruthlessly. Navy officials assess prospective special warfare operators and special boat operators, ranking them by their scores on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery, or ASVAB, physical readiness test, special operations resiliency test, and a mental toughness exam. The highest-ranking candidates are then assessed into training, based on how many spots the Navy has available at that point.

"We assess right now that, with the small cohorts of females, we don't really know what's going to happen as far as expected attrition," Dunbar, the Naval Special Warfare Center deputy commander, told DACOWITS in June.

Dunbar did say, however, that Naval Special Warfare Command was considered fully ready for its first female SEALs and SWCC operators, whenever they ultimately arrived. A cadre of female staff members was in place in the training pipeline, and the command regularly held all-hands calls to discuss inclusivity and integration.

"All the barriers have been removed," he said. "Our planning has been completed and is on track."

Salata said the Navy had also completed a thorough review of its curriculum and policies and had evaluated facilities and support capabilities to determine any changes that might need to be made to accommodate women. As a result, he said, minor changes were made to lodging facilities and approved uniform items.

Nonetheless, Salata said, "It would be premature to speculate as to when we will see the first woman SEAL or SWCC graduate. Managing expectations is an important part of the deliberate assessment and selection process; it may take months and potentially years."

Link

Great news so long as the standards are the same (and from everything I've heard, it sounds like they are).

Anyone who has watched American Ninja Warrior or any similar type of event knows plenty of women are posting results very similar to men.

While I don't think there should ever be a push for a 50/50 equality (or any ratio for that matter), I have no doubt there are women who can and will qualify because they've checked all the right boxes fair and square.

personally I Don't Care.

but you had better be able to complete the standard. Not some bullshit changed standards or "female" standards. THE STANDARD.


What I wanna know is when are all the females in the country gonna sign up for Selective Service? When? Hmmm...you wanna be the same then meet the same standards and prepare to be drafted.

[/rant]

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Great news so long as the standards are the same (and from everything I've heard, it sounds like they are).

The first female could be a male and he would only be required to meet the standards set for females.

From the article posted above:

"It's possible, however, that the first female member of these elite communities will come not from the outside, but from within. In October, a SWCC petty officer notified their chain-of-command that they identified as being transgender, Salata confirmed to Military.com

According to Navy policy guidance released last fall, a sailor must receive a doctor's diagnosis of medical necessity and command approval to begin the gender transition process, which can take a variety of different forms, from counseling and hormone therapy to surgery. Sailors must also prove they can pass the physical standards and requirements of the gender to which they are transitioning."

Well, the number of women who can make it through these courses is going to be single-digits (if any for quite awhile). Makes me wonder if it is worth all the time and expense and training slots.

I've been through Ranger School, look at the monumental effort it took to finally get a small handful of women through. BUDs is way tougher and way longer...

I love watching ANW with my family and think they do an outstanding job with having the same course male or female. Apples/Oranges with elite military units though. #1, you are just using your own body weight (not carrying heavy loads) so that is a serious advantage for a lighter female. Even so, the number of women who have completed any ANW course is still single digits...after 9 years?

It's a boat mate position on a SWCC Boat - not a Field Operator.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Great news so long as the standards are the same (and from everything I've heard, it sounds like they are).

The first female could be a male and he would only be required to meet the standards set for females.

From the article posted above:

"It's possible, however, that the first female member of these elite communities will come not from the outside, but from within. In October, a SWCC petty officer notified their chain-of-command that they identified as being transgender, Salata confirmed to Military.com

According to Navy policy guidance released last fall, a sailor must receive a doctor's diagnosis of medical necessity and command approval to begin the gender transition process, which can take a variety of different forms, from counseling and hormone therapy to surgery. Sailors must also prove they can pass the physical standards and requirements of the gender to which they are transitioning."

All the more reasons the standards should be the same!

As for the body weight issue, it's not an issue. There are 110 lbs. males and 170 lbs. females that are all muscle. We're not talking about the "average male: or the "average female." This is the top whatever fraction of a percentage of athletes in already physically-selective organizations.

Statistically speaking, most female performance at the elite levels is only a hair behind men. Here's a great article as to why: https://www.theatlantic.com/te...t-theyre-not/260927/
If you look at something like marathon times, the female times start at ~20th fastest time ever.

What does that mean in this case -- will a woman ever post the best "score" in one of these elite special warfare schools? Probably not. Will a few pass? Yeah, almost certainly.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
Great news so long as the standards are the same (and from everything I've heard, it sounds like they are).

The first female could be a male and he would only be required to meet the standards set for females.

From the article posted above:

"It's possible, however, that the first female member of these elite communities will come not from the outside, but from within. In October, a SWCC petty officer notified their chain-of-command that they identified as being transgender, Salata confirmed to Military.com

According to Navy policy guidance released last fall, a sailor must receive a doctor's diagnosis of medical necessity and command approval to begin the gender transition process, which can take a variety of different forms, from counseling and hormone therapy to surgery. Sailors must also prove they can pass the physical standards and requirements of the gender to which they are transitioning."

This 'thing', whatever it thinks it is, better pray it washes out of the program. I don't think the SEAL community is quite open minded enough to put up with this nonsense.

And all of this 'noise' about women taking a shot at SEAL training, is just that, 'noise'. If they can survive the program, with 'zero' accommodations, good for them. If they can't, then wash them out with the rest. You can probably count the number of women that can survive the program in ten years on one hand, so this isn't a big deal. However, my fear is that when these women are washed out, it will turn into a shit show of discrimination claims.

quote:

It's possible, however, that the first female member of these elite communities will come not from the outside, but from within. In October, a SWCC petty officer notified their chain-of-command that they identified as being transgender, Salata confirmed to Military.com.

It almost happened with the SEALs, also. Kristin Beck came out as transgender after her 20 years service with Naval Special Warfare.

I just don't get the whole transgender thing. Man that has become woman? If so, I think it's fair to say that decision making is questionable.

Personally I hate all this. Not the gender battles but the whole fixing something that isn't broken, just to fit an agenda.

I think men and women should for the most part have equal opportunitys, but there are some vocations that should not be forced into it. And I would say for either sex. I just don't like people blurring the lines "just because". Everyone should be able to accept that there are things they can't do, and work really hard at the things they can.

Wasn't G I Jane the first female SEAL?

quote:

Originally posted by msfzoe:
Wasn't G I Jane the first female SEAL?

(Pssssst...just a movie)

0 fucks given.

quote:

Originally posted by msfzoe:
Wasn't G I Jane the first female SEAL?

No. It was a special program called the U.S. Navy Combined Reconnaissance Team.

(...and still just a movie.)

But it was a good movie.

A few might get through the training, and make SWCC. They would participate in insertion and extraction, but I would be very surprised if any of them are ever part of a team that is "inserted."

I will always be fine with them joining as long as they meet the exact same standards in training and performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:

I love watching ANW with my family and think they do an outstanding job with having the same course male or female. Apples/Oranges with elite military units though. #1, you are just using your own body weight (not carrying heavy loads) so that is a serious advantage for a lighter female. Even so, the number of women who have completed any ANW course is still single digits...after 9 years?

I was thinking/saying the same thing. Until a MARSOC buddy said to me, "see how they do with no sleep, no nutrition, no rest. It will be a different ballgame when their body's have to do the same without any fuel".

Yeah, just what we need