I guess this asshat Pharisee is done with this thread. My offer for the Trent Horn book stands.

Coes,

We share the same faith, but direct methods will rarely achieve the desired aims.

Even in this thread alone, you can see a breadth of responses for why people have left - from theological, to local experiences, to dissatisfaction with the clergy or pope, or even emotional reasons.

No one solution will bring everyone back, even if they were conducive to it. Also remember the concept of Baptism of Desire; if they are doing what they truly believe is right by following Jesus, then that is all that is needed to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Respectfully and prayerfully I ask that you look at your posts and ask yourself if they really are helping someone who has walked away from the Church.

quote:

Originally posted by Cous2492:
...Trent Horn's new book, "Why We're Catholic."

Rediscover Catholicism by Matthew Kelly is another good read for those who have left the Church and are considering coming back.

Legend has it that, he who was later called Santa Claus, struck an opponent(Arius) at the Council of Nicea after a heated theological match.

Reports indicate that it was a left hook to the chin followed by a right to the liver. As shown more vividly by the following depiction, afterwards Arius was heard murmuring the words "no mas".



And a Merry Christmas to all...

quote:

I didn't think he was being intentionally provocative, and was hesitant to say something, but I thought this: "The list involves things like Mary, intercessory prayer (to or by the dead), infant baptism, necessity of confession to priests, infallibility of the Pope, etc." was unnecessary as, IMO, it veered into argumentation.

The thread title is " why are you leaving the catholic church!!

So someone answers the question. Should they be attacked for their answer?

If one would like to see SOME of the reasons why people are leaving the catholic church, read a book called (AIR) Revelation unveiled.

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:The thread title is " why are you leaving the catholic church!!

So someone answers the question. Should they be attacked for their answer?

I thought the same. I guess I could have just answered "because".

I already posted my reasons why I left, yet still have good feelings toward the Church.

But on the related subject of doctrines, etc. Bishop Robert Barron has an excellent series of videos, called "Catholicism", and many associated youtube videos.

If I had watched them before I left, I might never have left! Has manages to reinterpret Catholism on a much deeper level than the list of rote "doctrines" or "dogmas" that are usually assumed it is comprised of.
Remember that all religions are composed of groups of humans who are capable of understanding things at various levels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...RN1fPLzZuNzvIuh37SN2

All of us on earth are called to follow God, and by definition Truth.

If you truly believe that following your deity/tree/denomination/congregation etc. is the correct way, then you are following Christ.

To my knowledge, the Catholic Church, Anglicans and Lutherans are the only one to teach this very merciful belief (Baptism of Desire).

The only caveat is that of true belief, i.e. I truly believe the Mormon faith is correct and how one should follow Christ.

With that in mind, we have free will and SHOULD explore options.

Sometimes I read Lao Tzu before Mass. I like to think Christ would understand & be ok with it.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
The only caveat is that of true belief, i.e. I truly believe the Mormon faith is correct and how one should follow Christ.

Just to be clear, as I understand it, Baptism of Desire - at least in the RCC's doctrine - would only apply to those who have made a commitment to be baptized in the church, but die before undertaking the sacrament. The whole thing is only necessary because of the belief that actual baptism is literally a requirement for salvation. It's about getting credit for honest intent to fulfill the requirements of the specific faith.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding something, what you're describing ("As long as I honestly intend to follow Christ through whatever belief I honestly hold, it's good enough for salvation") is more of a universalist sort of doctrine and one that would likely be taken as heretical by most Christian denominations (including RCC).

Yes? No?

-Rob

Burton, I'm thinking along the lines of the "good thief" (Penitent Thief) asking Christ to remember him & Christ answering, today you will be with me in Paradise. A Baptism of Faith.

quote:

Originally posted by recoatlift:
Burton, I'm thinking along the lines of the "good thief" (Penitent Thief) asking Christ to remember him & Christ answering, today you will be with me in Paradise. A Baptism of Faith.

Exactly this. The example given in Catechism class is always the person in Africa or the Amazon jungle - if the only way to heaven is to "accept Christ", or physical baptism, then by definition they are excluded.

However, it applies to everyone - with the caveat that it be true belief. I believe that's what Coes was addressing in a very blunt matter, that one who truly believes in the teachings of the Catholic Church should not leave, because they are then rejecting their true beliefs.

Catechism link

quote:

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

quote:

Originally posted by recoatlift:
Burton, I'm thinking along the lines of the "good thief" (Penitent Thief) asking Christ to remember him & Christ answering, today you will be with me in Paradise. A Baptism of Faith.

Which I absolutely accept. That's the quintessential example of salvation by grace through faith, which is why Protestants largely reject any manner of literal works-based salvation.

Baptism by Desire, on the other hand, is a doctrine specifically rooted in a works-based salvation scheme - in this case, mandatory baptism - and essentially operates as a sort of loophole for those who already intended to participate.

As a doctrine, I believe it is superfluous in the sense that missing the physical act of baptism will not condemn someone who has a genuine faith, but hasn't checked all of the extra boxes their particular church says are required to get to the pearly gates.

My question to reloader-1 was whether he was taking a more universalist view, particularly in light of his referencing of Mormonism, which most protestant denominations and, indeed, the RCC, reject as being a true Christian religion at all.

-Rob

Burton,

Wonderful comments, and thanks for your insight. I'd advise you to read this:

https://www.catholic.com/magaz...on/faith-and-works-0

Stepping back a bit (and I can trace our family Catholicism to the Crusades), God is the absolute embodiment of everything that is good, be it empathy, joy, forgiveness, sweetness etc.

On a logical basis, do you believe anyone with those traits would exclude someone from Heaven who is imperfect but doing their best to live a "good" life? So many people in this thread are pursuing different paths, but they all have the same root and ending.

Perhaps this is a bit C.S. Lewis, and we won't truly know until the end of our lives, but I firmly hold this to be true.

In my particular case, I truly believe the Catholic Church's teachings are correct - I would therefore be sinning and rejecting truth if I left.

By the same token, someone who is Lutheran and becomes a Catholic while still believing in Lutheran doctrine would also be sinning against his true beliefs. I hope this helps!

Edit: re: my comment on Mormonism, I chose that on purpose. Substitute tree worship if you will, my point remains.

Again, wherever one ends up, celebrating Jesus is a wonderful thing.
I am continually amazed at the nuances between the denominations.
Just 300 years after the death of Christ, Christians couldn't agree on what was what and who was who.
Pretty incredible really.

Anything we humans touch we screw up.

I would suggest the OP go wherever he finds God dwells.
I would not worry about why people choose a particular denomination or why they left.
If you find Christ where you go, it's all good.

Crom- thanks for the link to the Bishop Barron's video. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Here is the Good News:
Everybody gets to Heaven....EVERYBODY.

Why ?
Because God's love and compassion really are boundless. All the problems and suffering on Earth are simply a product of our own ignorance.
Even "evil" is just a mistake made in ignorance. Of course big mistakes create big guilt and sorrow in the sinner's own mind, so it is a self-imposed punishment, and I suppose it is theoretically possible for an ignorance to be so great as to be a virtual "eternal damnation", but that ignorance would be so great as to not be a "human".

I know, I know...heresy!

Left the cathlic church 6 years ago.

Never really was that religious. My mom was and she made sure we went to church almost every sunday.

Cathlic church is too much about keeping the people stupid and under control then about spirituality.

While I understand that the church did and still does some good, it's not for me.

When the local parish spoke out in favor of the public vote for some gun control law in 2011, I left and told them the reason why I did so.

The longer I think about it, the less I regret it. My mom's reaction was as expected, her main argument was "you can't do that, BECAUSE!!"

For me God doesn't exist, Jesus was most likely made up by the church and I'm happy not to support the church anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by sidss1:
Crom- thanks for the link to the Bishop Barron's video. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Hey, sidds1-ji!
If you grew up in a Hindu family, I suspect you may really like this book:
https://www.amazon.com/God-Tal...owship/dp/0876120311
I regard it as the best explanation of spiritual concepts available in English!

quote:

Originally posted by recoatlift:
Sometimes I read Lao Tzu before Mass. I like to think Christ would understand & be ok with it.

If he's not okay with it, then he's not Christ the Almighty and all-knowing.

quote:

Bible
Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Tao - Chapter 74
People who try to take the executioner's place are like people that try to take the Master Carpenter's place.
If you use the Master's tools, you just cut your own hands.



Bible - Mathew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Tao - Chapter 76
The soft and yielding (people) will prevail.



Bible - Proverbs 10:19
The more you talk, the more you are likely to sin.
If you are wise, you will keep quiet.

Tao - Chapter 5
The mouth, on the other hand, becomes exhausted if you talk too much.
Better to keep your thoughts inside you.

By the way: The Tao is the world's most translated book, after the Bible.

http://www.thetao.info/tao/christ.htm