When speaking of conversions to islam, it’s hard to ignore the black prison population. They seem particularly prone. Maybe it’s the tribal thing

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Originally posted by Tn226:
Maybe it’s the tribal thing

The formation of tribes and other communities was a primary reason why we humans became the dominant large animals on the planet, so there is a strong evolutionary advantage to bonding with others of our kind.

Unfortunately, when the tribes become so large and numerous or insular that they are compelled by need or desire to compete with each other, what was an advantage at one time becomes toxic to societies by causing them to fragment rather than everyone’s working toward common goals. That’s where we largely are now, and the trend seems to becoming more and more prevalent all the time—at least in our country.

To add to the issue of Islam’s theology, I can also see how its description of the paradise that awaits all of its believers could be seen by many as preferable to any other version. Many religionists besides Christians and Muslims don’t have an expectation of a Heaven at all, and ideas about the Christian version are pretty muddled in my experience.

Where in the Bibles is Heaven explicitly described? There are indirect references to streets of gold and all that, but so? That indicates it would be pretty spectacular at first exposure, but a street is a street regardless of what it’s made of. What is the actual existence in the Christian Heaven like? I’ve raised this question with believers, and the ideas vary based on what the individual believes would make him/her happy.

One devout Christian friend expected to be able to pursue his shooting hobby in some way, but admitted that if every shot went through the “same hole” because of the realm’s perfection, that would take the shine off the achievement.

His wife believed that all bliss would simply be due to being in God’s presence.

Some people who have been asked stated that whatever the existence was like, it would have to include some way of contributing to a worthwhile endeavor, similar to the sorts of things they do in this life. It’s difficult to imagine how anyone could contribute to an otherwise perfect existence, but they evidently thought that it would be necessary.

The early Church father Tertullian believed that one of the pleasures of Heaven would be watching the people in hell being tormented eternally.

Another friend of mine believed that after she died she would be able to look back in time to observe any historical event in intimate detail. (Hopefully she’s not interested in me, or learned all she needed to know after one quick glimpse.)

Anyway, evidently any of those ideas is possible just based on personal belief and desire.

On the other hand, Islam does provide some details about what its paradise would be like. It’s been a long time since I read the Qur’an, but as I recall it mentions good things to eat and a pleasant climate. And then the sex: That’s obviously what the 72 virgins are all about (for the men, at least). One Muslim religious authority evidently claimed that men would have “perpetual erections.” It seems that would be somewhat inconvenient, but it would allow them to have sexual intercourse literally at any time and as long as they desired (hence, too, the need for multiple partners).

Again, a vision of nice weather, plenty of good things to eat, and then the ability to engage in a pleasurable activity as much as one wanted forever might obviously be more attractive than spending a trillion trillion millenniums (for starters) watching greedy bankers being roasted on spits over never-ending fires.

If it last longer than four hours, party on!

Seriously, what if the 72 virgins are all there and the guy has to wait for the same bathroom?

To piggyback, in many third world countries where Islam is rampant, the concept ( so foreign to westerners in general and Americans in particular) of a dictatorship either by a central government figure or religion is embraced as a wonderful thing. One thing we have done wrong in foreign policy and counter insurgency efforts is the erroneous belief that any people regardless of culture ideology or upbringing will happily embrace democratic process and representative government if given the chance.

I have Muslim friend whose family originally was from southern Russia. According to him the Cossacks came and forced his village to flee into Syria which was Muslim. They gave those people a choice: convert or die.
Some religion that is.

So what are we to do in this country? We all preach live and let live yet now Islam has a stranglehold in Paterson NJ, Michigan and Texas Any west coast? It seems like an anaconda sqeezing us.

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To add to the issue of Islam’s theology, I can also see how its description of the paradise that awaits all of its believers could be seen by many as preferable to any other version. Many religionists besides Christians and Muslims don’t have an expectation of a Heaven at all, and ideas about the Christian version are pretty muddled in my experience.

Where in the Bibles is Heaven explicitly described? There are indirect references to streets of gold and all that, but so? That indicates it would be pretty spectacular at first exposure, but a street is a street regardless of what it’s made of. What is the actual existence in the Christian Heaven like? I’ve raised this question with believers, and the ideas vary based on what the individual believes would make him/her happy.

One devout Christian friend expected to be able to pursue his shooting hobby in some way, but admitted that if every shot went through the “same hole” because of the realm’s perfection, that would take the shine off the achievement.

His wife believed that all bliss would simply be due to being in God’s presence.

I think his wife has it figured out.

Heaven is unification with God for eternity. Hell is rejecting God and separation from God for eternity. I don't think worldly things like streets or shooting perfect targets will apply in a spiritual world.

Of course, this is veering off-topic but widely discussed in the thread on Christianity.

The big difference I see between Christianity and Islam is that you must freely choose to follow Christ. No one can force it upon you. No one can choose it for you, although at Baptism you are chosen for Christ. Still, that remains a pledge by the parents or godparents which must be confirmed and chosen by the individual.

Why islam? Because leftists and muslims want the same thing. Totalitarian control over everything. What the idiotic leftists don't seem to get is that the muslims will kill them too in order to achieve their goal.

^^^ Yes, Gus.
Again, I say that Islam is a political system.

quote:

Originally posted by Tn226:
When speaking of conversions to islam, it’s hard to ignore the black prison population. They seem particularly prone. Maybe it’s the tribal thing

I think that this accounts for much, if not most, of the left's support of Islam. Due to "liberal guilt" over slavery black muslims have become the standard bearers of the civil rights movement mostly by being the loudest voice in the room, and claiming the moral high ground.

Islam has been at war with the world from the beginning of time. The only thing that's changed is how they conduct war, used to be sending thousands of warriors to fight hand to hand

Now they send masses of believers to infiltrate countries that will let them settle in, become citizens, have high birthrates, and build their Army off those who infiltrate the population.

France, GB, now the USA, Japan and Poland don't allow it, we unfortunately have about 50% of the population that just don't see it that way.

It's a war you don't fight with weapons.....

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I don't think worldly things like streets or shooting perfect targets will apply in a spiritual world.

Which was the point I was making earlier: My friend believed that there would be worldly pursuits in Heaven, you don’t. When I mentioned Tertullian’s view about the entertainment of watching the torments of hell in a different thread some time ago, one response was that he (a highly respected and influential early Christian theologian) was wrong and it wouldn’t be possible. Who’s right, and more important: Why?

Even Mark Twain wrote about a couple of nineteenth century teachings concerning Christian Heaven. He thought that spending eternity playing harps and singing God’s praises would become tedious after a time, and he also decried the idea that there would be no sex there—something he considered to be vital for (albeit worldly) pleasure and contentment.

Most people of course embrace the religious beliefs they are exposed to in childhood and thereafter. It’s not as if we get to a certain age and pick a religion to follow as if we were deciding on a college or career. But religious doctrine can affect how strongly one holds those beliefs. Islam benefits from the fact that entertaining doubts and listening to its critics can get one killed. Someone in the civilized West can read countless books and watch many videos that analyze Christian scripture and teachings, and which point out many things that might possibly cause someone to question what the local pastor preaches on a Sunday morning. That sort of thing isn’t possible in a Muslim society.

Although teachings and opinions about paradise are a minor issue, it’s the sort of thing that can nevertheless influence someone’s views about other doctrine. A Muslim or someone who is just asking questions about his own faith might think, “If Christians cannot agree about something as simple as that, what else are they mistaken about?”

As I say, I don’t believe that a relatively minor issue like what paradise is like is the only reason people accept or reject a particular religion, but it is illustrative of one difference between Christianity and Islam. (And I don’t, BTW, believe that the issue is irrelevant to this thread about why people “embrace” Islam. )

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Islam benefits from the fact that entertaining doubts and listening to its critics can get one killed. Someone in the civilized West can read countless books and watch many videos that analyze Christian scripture and teachings, and which point out many things that might possibly cause someone to question what the local pastor preaches on a Sunday morning. That sort of thing isn’t possible in a Muslim society.

Yes, Christianity must be freely chosen, which puts it at a certain disadvantage.

The same is true with government in a democracy. In Western civilization we have a lot of individual choices to make, including what type of government we are going to have. The fact that those choices can be fickle, or temporary, makes our government somewhat unreliable as an ally and enemies think they can wait us out. The communists have 5 year plans and 50 year plans. They can play the long game. We don't know what our government will be like after the mid-terms.

Islam is a cult for the weak minded and low morals.

No one should get pass for evil acts because it’s something their religion expects, but becoming a Muslim or the adherent of any other religion from the time one is old enough to understand anything about it isn’t like joining a street gang or any other voluntary endeavor.

Critics of a religion or other ideology are often the best source of information about them, and one critic of Islam was/is Ibn Warraq (a pseudonym for obvious reasons). Three of his excellent books that provide a lot of information about the religion are Why I Am Not a Muslim, What the Koran Really Says, and The Islam in Islamic Terrorism.

Another good book is Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It was written when she was an atheist, but in 2023 she wrote a piece stating that she was now a Christian.