quote:

Better question, why is the goddamn gov't running air traffic, the airlines could do a better job of it.

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There have been incidents in the past having to do with SAFETY that have been ignored by the airline industry. Might as well eliminate the National Transportation and Safety Board while we are it.

I can probably count on one hand the number of non government employees who have much sympathy for government employees (who are generally all but impossible to fire having to endure exceptionally infrequent situations such as this).

For every situation like this that a government employee may face, there are several your average everyday schmoes have to deal with in the private sector, most often with no pensions or benefits or job security that's anywhere near what govt employees often enjoy.

Am I sorry some members here, or their loved ones, are affected? Absolutely.

Are some of the rules jacked up regarding who is and isn't essential? Absolutely. Such as air traffic controllers like Phantom, and investigators like Dennis, and Flashlight's SO...

But that's it. The rest is part of the deal, and a very rare occurrence in any case.

Sorry dudes. Thems the breaks. Baton the hatches and weather the storm.

The shut down is a good thing. You guys being affected is a shitty side effect.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

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Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
as much as there is some short term pain, I think the longer the shutdown continues the better it is for us

Are you going to pay my bills because it’ll be better for us? I’m working without knowing if I’m going to get paid. Should we as Air Traffic Controllers just shut down the national airspace? Screw it, y’all can drive.

Did you not receive backpay after any of the previous shutdowns ended?

Not to what I should have been paid for hours worked.

Do you work a job without the certainty of getting paid? It’s easy to say that I will probably get paid when you have 0% influence on whether or not it actually happens.

Didn't say or imply anything. Just wanted to know what the result was from previous shutdowns.

That's a big chip you're carrying around on your shoulder.

Historically not only will you get paid but those furloughed will also get paid. So in essence those furloughed got a nice unscheduled paid vacation. I can't recall the last time they didn't get paid for days they were furloughed.

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Historically not only will you get paid but those furloughed will also get paid. So in essence those furloughed got a nice unscheduled paid vacation. I can't recall the last time they didn't get paid for days they were furloughed.

While that may be true... I don't think that should set a precedent or should happen. That wouldn't happen for non-gov employees laid off or furloughed.
Sorry if that means some of you don't get a paid vacation.

[QUOTE] My understanding was that the USCG was getting paid. Is this wrong? [QUOTE]

The administration was able to find a loophole to pay active duty members on 31 December. But this is a one time payment that will not be applicable for 15 January and beyond.

About 20% of our workforce is Gov't Civilian, most in some form of mission support role. For instance I have lost 75% of my logisticians. Readiness of our assets is increasingly at risk.

I was active duty CG stationed at the USCG headquarters from 1994-1998 when the government was shut down under Clinton. My office included civilian and active duty personnel. The civilians all went home and eventually got their back pay. Essentially an unplanned vacation and some thought they wouldn't get back pay, they all did. Those of us on active duty continued to show up and work and eventually got paid as well. I was never in fear of not eventually getting made whole by the government, nor did I ever doubt that the civilians would as well.

They will eventually get their back pay if they do indeed miss any pay checks.

Sucks if you live paycheck to paycheck as many people do, but that is the price you pay when your elected government is incapable of completing its most basic functions like actually passing a budget each year.

Perhaps they should all consider who they continue to vote into office and realize the cause and effect, but that is very unlikely.

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Tell us about the federal pay scale and retirement benefits.
There are many benefits to being a federal worker are there not?

I retired as a District Ranger from the USFS. I assume most would agree a position of considerable responsibility. My daughter, who went into management-level corporate retail right out of college, surpassed me in annual salary before the age of 25.

My retirement was essentially MY responsibility in that our confort now is entirely dependent on the sacrifices we made as a family in order to invest enough for an adequate retirement.

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Those of us on active duty continued to show up and work and eventually got paid as well

As one of those junior petty officers with two kids at the time, I can assure you that active duty members got paid during the Clinton era shutdown. Now I am not worried about myself, but I feel bad for our junior men and women, particularly those deployed away from their families defending our border at sea.

Dunno, but I worry that if this shutdown goes on much longer, things might go sideways for The Donald.

All we hear about is "they didn't get paid." Businesses are doing things like making donations to the "unpaid" gvm't workers.

Yes, I know, they will get back pay, but it's still being seen as the typical story being "I am a single mother and I need to pay my rent now or I get evicted"

And of course, the media blames only the "Orange Man" as owning he shutdown.


:worried:

Kinda hard to pay bills with an IOU. When things go south for other members of the forum, we rally behind them. When things go south for federal workers, we get “keep the .gov shut down till it hurts” and “just go find another job”. I’ve never asked for a handout but I will ask for the bullshit to stop.

quote:

Originally posted by Phantom229:
Kinda hard to pay bills with an IOU. When things go south for other members of the forum, we rally behind them. When things go south for federal workers, we get “keep the .gov shut down till it hurts” and “just go find another job”.

OK, that is damn well enough. You have no right to criticize this forum in such a manner. None. Hear me?

If you want to lament the lack of understanding of your plight, be my guest, but leave my forum and the good things we do, out of it. Out of it. Entirely.

When I was hired by Sherwin Williams 27 years ago, it was an “at will” agreement, I could be fired for any reason without recourse on my part.

There was no defined benefit package, my retirement was based on my 401k, payroll deductions for company stock purchases.

My retirement and savings was strictly up to me.
My responsibility.

Phantom, I am sorry you are dealing with this, honestly I hate to see anyone with the stress of how to pay the bills.

I work for the auto industry. Want to talk about a maligned, let em all die, attitude from most people? I have spent the last 25 years laid off, downsized, transferred, pay cuts, benefits chopped, showing up to work with chains on the doors, bounced paychecks, and at all times sitting here wondering when the axe will fall. Never working anywhere more than 5-6 years because the industry is so volatile. I am not union. Only recently have I truly taken a breath and started to feel somewhat secure in my job. But trust me, as a supplier you never know.

I know the stress of wondering how you are going to pay the bills and how hard that is, and as I said I am sorry you have to deal with it. But for government employees to somehow feel that they have some right to never have to worry about their job, or getting furloughed is some new evil that should be reserved for others, I don't share that feeling with you. Welcome to the world. The feeling you have now, I have literally had for years on end. Years of wondering how long this job will last, not having roots or any type of connection to company because you aren't there long enough, and I have zero, and I mean zero chance of getting any back pay. You most likely will.

You are being screwed by politicians. So are the rest of us. The politicians put regulations and rules on industries we have to live with that cost jobs and revenue. And bad managers and straight up crooks rip off employees, embezzle from companies, etc. We are all beholden to some corporate assholes or congressional ones.

So while you are feeling like we are piling on, we are just saying now you know how we feel, all the time.

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Originally posted by fpuhan:
What damfool decided air traffic control was "non-essential?"

Congress. The same people that decided to close the national parks and other such crap. The stuff declared non-essential is the stuff that impacts regular society the most. That way you get to see all the poor people wailing and crying on camera. Doesn't matter which party is in power. It benefits/hurts both equally. This time the R's are in the firing line...

Don't like it? Burn the entire system down or go remove enough of it to get the attention of those left so that it can be mostly fixed again. It will last a while, maybe 50 years before it gets back to everyone with their hand out for gvmt cheese.

If you aren't willing to do that then stay quiet about it.

Some of us have designed our lives so that stupid stuff like this causes minimal impact.

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Don't like it? Burn the entire system down or go remove enough of it to get the attention of those left so that it can be mostly fixed again.

It'll burn for a long time...
It's a shame we couldn't just trim it back.
Congress could pass a balanced budget, every year, if only there was the will to do so.

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Originally posted by roberth:

why is the goddamn gov't running air traffic, the airlines could do a better job of it.

I was under the impression that one of the federal government's duties is to promote interstate commerce. That would certainly include aviation, unless we are going to restrict all flights and prohibit them from crossing state lines.

"Airlines could do a better job of it?" That is a really short-sighted view. Airline traffic is just one segment of those who use the national airspace system. Don't forget military flights, corporate flights, air taxi, charter, and thousands of private citizens who fly for business and / or family travel. All of these flights use Air Traffic Control services.

Maybe you would like to go back to the "system" that was in place prior to the mid 1950s. Remember the Grand Canyon disaster when a United DC-7 and a TWA Super Constellation collided above the Grand Canyon? Pieces of aluminum raining down, along with the bodies of everyone aboard those flights? This eventually led to our modern Air Traffic Control system.

I'm a federal employee affected by the shutdown, but as part of an "essential" agency, i'm still at work.

I keep a savings acct with enough to cover 6 months of expenses. Its pretty clear that a goverment made up of 50% socialists and 50% capitalists who despise each other, may on occasion have moments of gridlock.

I've been through this before, and will go through it again. If you work for the federal gov, prepare accordingly. Your bosses are 50/50 socialists and capitalists, and they completely and utterly despise each other.

A wealthy friend once told me: live well below your means and save the difference, otherwise you'll forever be dependant.

That being said, as a pilot who flies for fun, i bet flying into JFK with no ATC on duty would be a helluva lot of fun. Once.

I really doub't the American public would tolerate more than a couple instances of an 900,000lb 747-8 falling into their neighborhoods at 500mph. Anybody remember Aeromexico 498? A MD90 vs a Cherokee 140 if i remember right .

The Tenerife "incident" was pretty bad. Kind of an ATC failure. With no ATC, i imagine flying, or letting loved ones fly would be a whole different matter.

Dont click unless you got 45 minutes to kill:
https://youtu.be/La6mNWbOXMc

Or if Customs all started to quit and leave the Ports unmanned for other jobs.

You'll only need to save enough to get you by until the ones who didnt save start getting other jobs, then things will get sorted out. They will never let these things get as bad as they could get.

quote:

I'm a federal employee affected by the shutdown, but as part of an "essential" agency, i'm still at work.

I keep a savings acct with enough to cover 6 months of expenses. Its pretty clear that a goverment made up of 50% socialists and 50% capitalists who despise each other, may on occasion have moments of gridlock.

I've been through this before, and will go through it again. If you work for the federal gov, prepare accordingly. Your bosses are 50/50 socialists and capitalists, and they completely and utterly despise each other.

A wealthy friend once told me: live well below your means and save the difference, otherwise you'll forever be dependant.

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Thank you for your response. I was getting sick of the whining. The news media profiling people who are in dire straits after missing one paycheck. A re reading of Aesops Fable of the grasshopper and the ant seems in order for some of these federal employees.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by roberth:

why is the goddamn gov't running air traffic, the airlines could do a better job of it.

I was under the impression that one of the federal government's duties is to promote interstate commerce. That would certainly include aviation, unless we are going to restrict all flights and prohibit them from crossing state lines.

"Airlines could do a better job of it?" That is a really short-sighted view. Airline traffic is just one segment of those who use the national airspace system. Don't forget military flights, corporate flights, air taxi, charter, and thousands of private citizens who fly for business and / or family travel. All of these flights use Air Traffic Control services.

Maybe you would like to go back to the "system" that was in place prior to the mid 1950s. Remember the Grand Canyon disaster when a United DC-7 and a TWA Super Constellation collided above the Grand Canyon? Pieces of aluminum raining down, along with the bodies of everyone aboard those flights? This eventually led to our modern Air Traffic Control system.

Thank you for correcting me, I completely forgot about all that other air traffic.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
I'm a federal employee affected by the shutdown, but as part of an "essential" agency, i'm still at work.

I keep a savings acct with enough to cover 6 months of expenses. Its pretty clear that a goverment made up of 50% socialists and 50% capitalists who despise each other, may on occasion have moments of gridlock.

I've been through this before, and will go through it again. If you work for the federal gov, prepare accordingly. Your bosses are 50/50 socialists and capitalists, and they completely and utterly despise each other.

A wealthy friend once told me: live well below your means and save the difference, otherwise you'll forever be dependent.

That's good advice, Ken226.
Obviously, we need some functions of government. Air traffic control is one of them.
But we also need a wall to protect our border.
The time for Lucy pulling away the football away from Charlie Brown at the last second is over. That's what Nancy wants to do: Open the government, then we'll talk. Trump didn't fall for it. Good.