I am ok with dealers and pushers facing these additional charges, and would support following the money trail to the big fish making the money. How it would work in reality no clue, but it sure sounds good.

Not sure what to do about the people, saying it will kill you, ruin your life, family, marriage, career - if that is not enough that's a dark place you're going.

We could go back to how it was before these asinine drug laws were passed. Did you know that once upon a time doctors were able to prescribe opiates for addicts to take rather than have them buy drugs from illegal dealers on the street? But the Feds decided it was better to arrest said doctors and pull their licenses under the new laws.

No how exactly are they going to prove this? If the guy ODs, is he supposed to have a note on him that says John Doe is my supplier?

I do think if they made prison terms 3x longer for dealers, a lot of people would not consider dealing. in the late 70's/early 80's in South Florida just about every other person trafficked or sold cocaine.....doctors, lawyers, family people, just about anyone. You'd be surprised, but the money was so good and prison sentences so lax lots of normal people did it. Then when they made the prison sentences serious, all of the US people got out (mostly) and the cubans took over doing it......

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
No how exactly are they going to prove this? If the guy ODs, is he supposed to have a note on him that says John Doe is my supplier?

Actually, most of the time they do. It is the texts and data located in their cell phone. The thing about opioid users is they aren't like many marijuana or some other drug users. They don't buy in bulk and save a bunch for later. You frequently will find them in vehicles because they can't even make it home. Heck most of the time they are in the same lot where they bought the dope and almost every populated place has some sort of camera close by that may not show the deal but will at least show the vehicles were there at the same time pair that with cell phone data.
They generally buy their fix and shoot it as quick as they can so it is generally quite easy to narrow it down.

I am all for as many tools as possible in the toolbox to use against the criminal purveyors of misery and death.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
how about manslaughter with special circumstances

It seems like an awfully knowing and deliberate act to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
how about manslaughter with special circumstances

It seems like an awfully knowing and deliberate act to me.

I think manslaughter is crossing the line. While I hate drug dealers and druggies with a passion. Where do you stop. Do you next charge bartenders or liquor store salesman with manslaughter if someone drinks themselves to death? It's no mystery that the chances of OD'ing on heroin sooner or later are very high. I think they'r better off doubling the prison time for drug dealing.

Most people know about Percocet which is prescribed by a doctor but they are unaware that it contains opoid. This happened to me after having back surgery. It wasn't until then that I realized that I was getting a narcotic. I had bowel problems which lasted for weeks.

Oxycodone (opoid) has street names of "hillbilly heroin" and "perks". It is similar to Heroin. Bad stuff.

I don't think we can arrest, convict, and incarcerate this problem out of existence, or even to the point of getting under some sort of control. As long as there are addicts out there willing to spend any amount of money, and do anything necessary to get that money, to feed their drug habit, someone will do what it takes to supply them. It's not like we underincarcerate people for this already, especially relative to the rest of the world.

If there's a solution, it will have to be something applied to the addict population. This is bad, because I've seen nothing to indicate that there is anything like a systemic cure to addiction.

Given these realities, we need to do what is possible to mitigate the damage done by the problem to society at large. I think this needs to be in the form of a carefully controlled legalization of narcotics. Pull the sales of narcotics out of the black markets, imploding the profitability of the criminal networks that now control supply. Do this in a way that allows the addict to be supplied, but in a way the in no way encourages the unaddicted to start using these drugs, and buts non-judicial pressure on the addict population to at least try to get clean.

And pressure has to be put on the medical community and pharmaceutical industry to come up with alternatives to narcotic painkillers for the treatment of chronic pain. A targeted taxation on the profits from the current painkillers should be implemented, as well as the promise of financial incentives for the creation of non-addicting alternative.

We have a law like this in WA controlled substance homicide. It is very difficult to prove as most people don't stick around when their friends die and if they do they say, " you won't believe me but we found it in the park" when asked for the source of the dope.

quote:

don't think we can arrest, convict, and incarcerate this problem out of existence, or even to the point of getting under some sort of control.

I don't agree with you very often, but when you're right - you're right...

Almost all that's happening now is that some get to feel better and/or earn a living or get (re)elected because they're "doing something", "at least trying", and putting it to the "bad guys". It makes some of their jobs and lives easier, at the expense of many others; it gives some an easy target upon which to aim their ideological differences and ample resources, and it facilities their ability to look down their noses at, and feel superior to, others, none of which makes even an inch of progress toward solving any of these societal problems.

The way such things are, and have been, handled is a sham. It's Theatre beyond TSA-level.

Obviously... those involved in drugs who also commit other serious crimes (murder, robbery, burglary, and the like) need to be punished for those particular crimes. My comments ought not be taken as favoring lawlessness or anything of the sort. I simply favor a better set of priorities in general, and an actual reasoned approach regarding "drugs".

Prohibition is a joke, and a failed approach that has demonstrated it's colossal failure for decades, centuries even. It doesn't work, and never, ever, will. Why keep failing?

If we are going to have a "war on drugs," then fight it like a war.

Smugglers and larger dealers get the death penalty. Long-term rehab sentences for users.

That attitude does keep drugs from other countries.

Its playing around with it, that's BS.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Do you next charge bartenders or liquor store salesman with manslaughter if someone drinks themselves to death? It's no mystery that the chances of OD'ing on heroin sooner or later are very high. I think they'r better off doubling the prison time for drug dealing.

I'm thinking particularly in terms of fentanyl, which is what seems to be behind the latest spates of ODs. Apparently dealers don't have to add much to go from it being cheap filler to being highly likely to be lethal. The dealers know this because they're seeing the deaths happen among their customers, but they keep adding the stuff to their heroin anyway and they don't seem to be making all that much effort to avoid creating lethal doses.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
Do you next charge bartenders or liquor store salesman with manslaughter if someone drinks themselves to death? It's no mystery that the chances of OD'ing on heroin sooner or later are very high. I think they'r better off doubling the prison time for drug dealing.

I'm thinking particularly in terms of fentanyl, which is what seems to be behind the latest spates of ODs. Apparently dealers don't have to add much to go from it being cheap filler to being highly likely to be lethal. The dealers know this because they're seeing the deaths happen among their customers, but they keep adding the stuff to their heroin anyway and they don't seem to be making all that much effort to avoid creating lethal doses.

That is true, but if their customers die so does their revenue from those customers.

quote:

Originally posted by mas4363:
They call this a drug war. Treat it like one. Either Mexico stops it or we send our troops in and wipe out the cartels.

Although I am in agreement, in actuality I think this would be a very difficult matter. The Mexican drug cartels are very well armed, have lots of money, and have the government in their pockets. They are also ruthless and care nothing about collateral damage. Wiping them out is a nice idea, but I'm afraid it's a vain hope.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
That is true, but if their customers die so does their revenue from those customers.

There does seem to be at least some reason to believe that heroin dealers see a few overdoses as being good for buisness since ODs are a sign of potency.

http://www.browardpalmbeach.co...drug-dealers-8188901

If dealers are thinking that way, then they're deliberately setting at least a few of their customers up for overdoses. Absent intervention, a lot of the recent fentanyl-related ODs have been fatal and the dealers know it. IOW, if a dealer did that, that dealer didn't just take a chance that someone would die - that dealer fully expected that someone would die, and that the death would boost the dealer's market share.

If we're going there (literally), let's be honest what that means, which is invading Mexico. At that point it's problems become our problems.

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:

quote:

Originally posted by mas4363:
They call this a drug war. Treat it like one. Either Mexico stops it or we send our troops in and wipe out the cartels.

Although I am in agreement, in actuality I think this would be a very difficult matter. The Mexican drug cartels are very well armed, have lots of money, and have the government in their pockets. They are also ruthless and care nothing about collateral damage. Wiping them out is a nice idea, but I'm afraid it's a vain hope.

flashguy

Seems to me that the only way to stop this epidemic is to make the penalties so harsh that the dealers are scared to deal that shit.

Mandatory death penalties might do it, but only if the sentence was always promptly carried out.

None of this 20 years on death row BS.

Tried, if guilty sentenced, one appeal, and give them the needle.

The money to be made by the pushers is so much that these slap on the wrist penalties do nothing to stop the trade.

quote:

Last time I checked, criminals were criminals because they don't care about the law. So long as there is demand for intoxicants, there will be people ready, able, and available to sell them regardless what laws politicians put in place.

Yeah, prohibition worked so well, didn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Punishing the source is not that nutty of an idea, is it? If not this, what, then?

I agree with what your saying. I just dont see how they are going to prove who the person bought the pills from.